Are laptop keyboards bad for our fingers? What keyboards do you recommend?

[hajime]

Hello, I have been using my MBP 2010 17" days and nights a lot for about two years. Before that I used rMBP 2012 and 2015 15". While I was using the rMBP 2012 too much, I developed Trigger Finger (middle finger bent involuntarily). It was a bit painful and took me about two years to recover. I think when I typed, my fingers impacted the keys of the rMBP 15" keyboard and caused the injury. Wit the MBP 2010, I am starting to have the same sensation again.

So, are these keyboards bad for long-term use? What external keyboards do you recommend? I used to use something similar to the Logitech K350 about 20 years ago. It was comfortable to use but I did not type as often as I do these days.

I came across something like Cherry MX keys. Are keyboards made of such keys good for the fingers for long term use?

 

[MacGizmo]

There's nothing wrong with any of the keyboards. The problem is with your physical health. You're probably suffering from CT or some other problem like bone spurs. It could be something a simple as inflammation (which is the root of many, many health-related issues).

The problem could even be fixed by adjusting the height of your chair. I experienced pain in my upper shoulder when working on my computer. It generally started to hurt just minutes after starting to type/mouse—but I noticed it only happened at home, not at the office. Turns out, getting a chair that could be raised a bit higher allowed me to not rest my lower arm and wrist on the edge of the desk with so much pressure.

Maybe the problem isn't with your fingers, maybe the problem is in your arm/wrist, or a pinched nerve in your back and the symptom is just showing in your fingers.

 

[hajime]

There was inflammation in my finger few years ago.

I think with fingers at about 70 degrees to the keys, the impact to shallow keys could cause injuries.

 

[Plett]

Typing is not a primal event. Relatively new invention. Like Carpal Tunnel YMMV. I have been using keyboards of all sorts for 30 years from old mechanical clackers to modern designs without issue. I would schedule a meeting with a GP to start with.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Any typing on any keyboard is slowly causing damage over time, that simple really.

 

[Maxx Power]

Key travel and abruptness of the stop are factors in arthritis development. Longer key travel and a gentler stop cushions the impact on your joints. This principal is behind most high impact sports. This is the same reason why the elliptical trainer's leg motion is very low impact as compared to a treadmill.

The jury is still out as to whether or not these keyboards contribute to greater joint wear, although first principals suggest that it is possible. I like mechanical keyboards, some are even made to specifically reduce impact on your joints.

 

[vkd]

Check out online advice on sitting posture whilst using a computer, with info on desk and chair height, arm angle, etc. People have been typing since around 1800 when the first typing machines were invented, and hardly anyone complains of the problems you have.

 

[hajime]

Key travel and abruptness of the stop are factors in arthritis development. ... I like mechanical keyboards, some are even made to specifically reduce impact on your joints.

Which keyboards are they? What do you think of the Das 4 Professional with MX Brown or Blue keys?

 

[Maxx Power]

Which keyboards are they? What do you think of the Das 4 Professional with MX Brown or Blue keys?

There are plenty of "ergonomic" mechanical keyboards designed with some health concerns in mind. The specific types I was thinking of are those that do not require bottoming-out or makes bottoming-out soft (you can mod any switch with soft-landing pads, they are cheap). The lack of bottoming-out or soft-bottoming-out makes it easier for the joints. There was a switch in development a year or so ago that specifically addresses the needs of people with joint issues that are aggravated by bottoming-out, but I can't seem to track it down at the moment. It essentially incorporates a soft actuation, clear actuation point and aggressive increases in tension after actuation to prevent bottoming-out.

As for testing Cherry switches, I recommend that you try a sampler pack first: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/sampler-kit/wasd-6-key-cherry-mx-switch-tester.html. It contains every Cherry switch you can get on a keyboard, and the effect of dampers. They do not include soft-landing pads, so you'll have to source those else where. You may also like Topre keyboards and switches. They are softer actuating and feature a minimal actuation force of just 30g, which is less than any of the Cherry switches. Topre keyboards are rather expensive, so I would recommend that you try them first before you commit.

I think your typing technique is also very important. If you relax your fingers while you type, there is far less of a chance of trigger finger development or other tendon/joint issues. The same finger relaxation is taught to all piano players, for the same reason. You don't want your fingers to be in a constant curl position or some forced position while typing or playing the piano. The same is said for the wrist, the elbow, the shoulders all the way to the posture.

Also, some glucosamine+MSM+chondrotin pills that you can get at your local pharmacy or Costco is super great for all joint issues. It takes a few days up to a week for the effects to manifest, but once it does, you'll probably not go back. Even if you have no symptoms, taking some of these supplements once a day is a good way to preserve joint function. It supposedly increases joint lubrication.

 

[ApfelKuchen]

Key travel and abruptness of the stop are factors in arthritis development. Longer key travel and a gentler stop cushions the impact on your joints. This principal is behind most high impact sports. This is the same reason why the elliptical trainer's leg motion is very low impact as compared to a treadmill.

The jury is still out as to whether or not these keyboards contribute to greater joint wear, although first principals suggest that it is possible. I like mechanical keyboards, some are even made to specifically reduce impact on your joints.

While this is true, it's not the full story. A runner has his/her entire weight in play - no way to reduce the force of gravity. Keyboards (and other similar devices) do not have a significant gravitational component - muscular force is paramount.

Keyboards need some level of shock absorbency - no person's touch is that well calibrated. However, a person who pounds the keyboard generates far more excess force than a person with a lighter touch. One of the skills I happened to learn over the decades is to calibrate my touch to the machine, rather than expect the machine to adapt to my touch.

I started out on manual typewriters - incredibly long keystroke travel requiring heavy force at the very end of key travel (especially if making carbon copies). From there I went to electrics that seemed, by comparison, to respond to a feather's touch. So, I learned to calibrate my touch to the machine. Perhaps someone who starts out typing on computer keyboards misses this particular lesson as the contrast between modern keyboards is much narrower, but it's still behavior that can be learned.

The less force someone puts into keypress the less stress they'll have in their arms and shoulders as well - all good things for ergonomics.

 

[hajime]

As I recall, when the Atari 400 computer came out, the keys were touch sensitivity. No need to use a lot of force to type.

Enclosed is a photo of the way I type. I have my elbow on the desk. As you see, the middle finger is hitting the key almost vertically. Is this bad? Some ergonomic sites suggested having the forarms floating on the keyboard.

Is it better to use something like the Belkin WaveRest? I used to have something like that about 20 years ago.

How the wrist rest from Fellows compared with those from Belkin these days?

 

[Tech198]

Hello, I have been using my MBP 2010 17" days and nights a lot for about two years. Before that I used rMBP 2012 and 2015 15". While I was using the rMBP 2012 too much, I developed Trigger Finger (middle finger bent involuntarily). It was a bit painful and took me about two years to recover. I think when I typed, my fingers impacted the keys of the rMBP 15" keyboard and caused the injury. Wit the MBP 2010, I am starting to have the same sensation again.

So, are these keyboards bad for long-term use? What external keyboards do you recommend? I used to use something similar to the Logitech K350 about 20 years ago. It was comfortable to use but I did not type as often as I do these days.

I came across something like Cherry MX keys. Are keyboards made of such keys good for the fingers for long term use?

How hard do u press on the keys to develop a kink ?

I use my Macbook Pro keyboard day in, day out, and never had the problems. It's really boils down to user preference.

 

[Maxx Power]

While this is true, it's not the full story. A runner has his/her entire weight in play - no way to reduce the force of gravity. Keyboards (and other similar devices) do not have a significant gravitational component - muscular force is paramount.

Keyboards need some level of shock absorbency - no person's touch is that well calibrated. However, a person who pounds the keyboard generates far more excess force than a person with a lighter touch. One of the skills I happened to learn over the decades is to calibrate my touch to the machine, rather than expect the machine to adapt to my touch.

I started out on manual typewriters - incredibly long keystroke travel requiring heavy force at the very end of key travel (especially if making carbon copies). From there I went to electrics that seemed, by comparison, to respond to a feather's touch. So, I learned to calibrate my touch to the machine. Perhaps someone who starts out typing on computer keyboards misses this particular lesson as the contrast between modern keyboards is much narrower, but it's still behavior that can be learned.

The less force someone puts into keypress the less stress they'll have in their arms and shoulders as well - all good things for ergonomics.

Well said. I agree with what you said. As for the runners and reducing impact - the technical term is impulse. That is the integral of force over time. A high impact activity has a high impulse. For running, reducing impulse by way of shoe cushioning and technique are paramount in reducing the risk of injury. I see that in my original post I only covered the impulse from the device's perspective and neglected to mention technique. I did make up for this in my follow-up post to suggest the latter. Your perspective and experience as you shared is an important one, because it empowers the user to adjust themselves before altering their environment, which is a much more proactive way to solve the problem. I absolutely support this approach.
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As I recall, when the Atari 400 computer came out, the keys were touch sensitivity. No need to use a lot of force to type.

Enclosed is a photo of the way I type. I have my elbow on the desk. As you see, the middle finger is hitting the key almost vertically. Is this bad? Some ergonomic sites suggested having the forarms floating on the keyboard.

Is it better to use something like the Belkin WaveRest? I used to have something like that about 20 years ago.

How the wrist rest from Fellows compared with those from Belkin these days?

I can see that your posture is a bit too curled up. Try relaxing/straightening your fingers a bit. Might also be worthwhile for you to periodically stretch your fingers the way pianists do. You can Google some simple piano finger stretches. I think this may help you in the long run.

 

[hajime]

How hard do u press on the keys to develop a kink ?

I use my Macbook Pro keyboard day in, day out, and never had the problems. It's really boils down to user preference.

I did not measure how hard I pressed on the keys.

In a summer few years ago, I wrote a complaint report. It had about 500 pages like a book with Table of Content. After that, I developed this Trigger Finger issue. I can imagine that when I typed that report in anger, I exerted more impulse than normal.