Beige G3 with G4 upgrade issue with Startup Disk Control Panel.

[DearthnVader]

I upgraded my Beige G3/266( Rev 1 ) with a MPC7400/400. I think it is a CPU from a Yikes G4, and now the Startup Disk Control Panel no long works to change the startup disk.

I can boot OS X via Xpostfacto 4( 10.2.8 and 10.4.11 ), but the Startup Disk Control Panel can't change the Startup Disk. I tried with the version from the Mac OS 8.5 install CD, Mac OS 9.2.2, Mac OS X 10.2.8 and Mac OS X 10.4.11.

None of them work.

I tried zapping the PRAM and Resetting the Cuda, but the issue persists. Anyone have this issue before?

Also, anyone know the proper procedure for reseting the Cuda?

 

[LightBulbFun]

I upgraded my Beige G3/266( Rev 1 ) with a MPC7400/400. I think it is a CPU from a Yikes G4, and now the Startup Disk Control Panel no long works to change the startup disk.

I can boot OS X via Xpostfacto 4( 10.2.8 and 10.4.11 ), but the Startup Disk Control Panel can't change the Startup Disk. I tried with the version from the Mac OS 8.5 install CD, Mac OS 9.2.2, Mac OS X 10.2.8 and Mac OS X 10.4.11.

None of them work.

I tried zapping the PRAM and Resetting the Cuda, but the issue persists. Anyone have this issue before?

Also, anyone know the proper procedure for reseting the Cuda?

your lucky thats all that stopped working! Yikes! CPUs are known for being a bit touch and go at times in G3 Beiges, often requiring you to shuffle DIMMs about and generally finagle things to get it to work

unless you really need the startup disk control panel to work for something, I would stick with using Xpostfacto to chose you startup disk (especially as xpostfacto will make sure the needed NVRAMRC patches are in place)

tis a curious issue tho, if you put the G3 CPU back in does it start working again or?


BTW since you mention you have a Rev 1 (by which I presume you mean Rev A?) machine id check that you have a G4 compatible VRM

OWC's Support

OWC's Support

eshop.macsales.com

 

[DearthnVader]

your lucky thats all that stopped working! Yikes! CPUs are known for being a bit touch and go at times in G3 Beiges, often requiring you to shuffle DIMMs about and generally finagle things to get it to work

unless you really need the startup disk control panel to work for something, I would stick with using Xpostfacto to chose you startup disk (especially as xpostfacto will make sure the needed NVRAMRC patches are in place)

tis a curious issue tho, if you put the G3 CPU back in does it start working again or?


BTW since you mention you have a Rev 1 (by which I presume you mean Rev A?) machine id check that you have a G4 compatible VRM

OWC's Support

OWC's Support

eshop.macsales.com

It has the Rev A ROM, I'll have to check the VRM.

It was really a Rev B, it think, it's a Mini Tower 266Mhz G3.

These are old quirky machines, Open Firmware 2.0f can't read HFS+/HFS disks, but can read none hybrid ISO and MSDOS disks. Some NVRAM patches needed to load BootX from a HFS+ disk.

I've got a Radeon 7000 PCI 64MB PC Bios card on the way, I'm going to try and load the Mac FCode ROM from a MSDOS disk in Open Firmware, I'll let everyone know how that goes.

 

[LightBulbFun]

It has the Rev A ROM, I'll have to check the VRM.

It was really a Rev B, it think, it's a Mini Tower 266Mhz G3.

These are old quirky machines, Open Firmware 2.0f can't read HFS+/HFS disks, but can read none hybrid ISO and MSDOS disks. Some NVRAM patches needed to load BootX from a HFS+ disk.

I've got a Radeon 7000 PCI 64MB PC Bios card on the way, I'm going to try and load the Mac FCode ROM from a MSDOS disk in Open Firmware, I'll let everyone know how that goes.

are you sure its a Rev B machine with a Rev A ROM?

id expect you would not get any display output from the onboard graphics if that was the case

since the Rev A machines have Rage II Graphics where as the Rev B's have ATI Rage Pro Graphics which have a different PCI Device ID of course

(unless the Rev A ROM happened to already include Rage Pro support like how the G3 BW ROM does have G4 7400 support and can properly enumerate one once you remove the artificial block)

indeed I am aware of how Quirky they are, I am well experienced in messing with them


you can also tell a Rev A Rev B and Rev C from their ToolBox ROM image versions in System profiler in Classic Mac OS

Identifying The Revision number of a Beig… - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

 

[ervus]

I think that control panel item just sets "boot-device" in NVRAM. So you could look and see if that is being set, and if so, diagnose from there...

 

[DearthnVader]

@joevt

I'm toying around with a Rev. A Beige G3, adding a few upgrades and what not.

I want to disable the built-in ATI Video in "Slot" F1 via the pic-probe-list command, however it's going to take some trial and error to figure what bit disables probing for the built-in slot F1.

Here is the issue, I don't want to soft brick the system by disabling the wrong PCI device, as everything runs off the PCI Bus on this G3. I don't want to disable ADB and leave myself in a situation that I can't recover or zap the PRAM because I disabled the KBD on the ADB bus.

I know there is a way to enter the Open Firmware recovery mode( aka load the defaults ), but I don't know how to do that on a Old World Mac?

On most New World Machines you just hold the power button, keep holding though the boot chime and programers tone, and the system will boot Open Firmware with the defaults loaded. On New World iBooks and PowerBooks you need to hold Power and the Apple key to do this.

Does anyone know the procedure to do this on a Beige G3?

 

[LightBulbFun]

I think that control panel item just sets "boot-device" in NVRAM. So you could look and see if that is being set, and if so, diagnose from there...

on an OWR mac it does a bit more then that, specifically setting up the NVRAMRC patches needed to Boot OS X (remember up to 10.2.8 is officially supported on a G3 Beige)

I want to disable the built-in ATI Video in "Slot" F1 via the pic-probe-list command, however it's going to take some trial and error to figure what bit disables probing for the built-in slot F1.

on my Rev B I found the PCI probe method never really worked for me, I just brute forced it by nuking all of its properties in the device tree and that seemingly did the trick

(although I found you dont really need to disable it in actuality for running Leopard etc)

Here is the issue, I don't want to soft brick the system by disabling the wrong PCI device, as everything runs off the PCI Bus on this G3. I don't want to disable ADB and leave myself in a situation that I can't recover or zap the PRAM because I disabled the KBD on the ADB bus.

I know there is a way to enter the Open Firmware recovery mode( aka load the defaults ), but I don't know how to do that on a Old World Mac?

On most New World Machines you just hold the power button, keep holding though the boot chime and programers tone, and the system will boot Open Firmware with the defaults loaded. On New World iBooks and PowerBooks you need to hold Power and the Apple key to do this.

Does anyone know the procedure to do this on a Beige G3?

its pretty much impossible to actually brick an OWR Mac like you describe since the NVRAM, really is a battery backed memory in an OWR mac (The BootROM really is Read only Memory so NVRAM/PRAM settings are not stored in it like they are in a NWR Mac)

if you enter a non booting state on an OWR Mac, pull the battery leave it for a few minutes and the PRAM/NVRAM will be reset (back when I had a G3 Beige but no ADB mice or keyboard this was how I reset PRAM quite regularly LOL)

this is also why OWR Macs have a fairly limited NVRAMRC space (and why you cant run Sonnets PCI bridge Patches and the OS X patches on an AAPL,e411 (TAM/5500/6500) machine at the same time)

 

[joevt]

@joevt

I'm toying around with a Rev. A Beige G3, adding a few upgrades and what not.

I want to disable the built-in ATI Video in "Slot" F1 via the pic-probe-list command, however it's going to take some trial and error to figure what bit disables probing for the built-in slot F1.

Here is the issue, I don't want to soft brick the system by disabling the wrong PCI device, as everything runs off the PCI Bus on this G3. I don't want to disable ADB and leave myself in a situation that I can't recover or zap the PRAM because I disabled the KBD on the ADB bus.

I know there is a way to enter the Open Firmware recovery mode( aka load the defaults ), but I don't know how to do that on a Old World Mac?

On most New World Machines you just hold the power button, keep holding though the boot chime and programers tone, and the system will boot Open Firmware with the defaults loaded. On New World iBooks and PowerBooks you need to hold Power and the Apple key to do this.

Does anyone know the procedure to do this on a Beige G3?

I have the Beige G3 Open Firmware rom and disassembled and detokenized and decompiled results but it's hard to follow and I don't have a Beige G3 to play with.

I think the firmware is this version:
Production information
ROM revision: $77D.45F1

From Name Registry output:

/Devices
  /device-tree
    /cpus
      /PowerPC,750
        /l2-cache
    /chosen
    /memory
    /openprom
    /AAPL,ROM
    /options
    /aliases
    /packages
      /deblocker
      /disk-label
      /obp-tftp
      /mac-files
      /mac-parts
      /aix-boot
      /fat-files
      /iso-9660-files
      /xcoff-loader
      /terminal-emulator
    /pci
      /mac-io
        /mesh
          /sd
          /st
        /bmac
        /escc
          /ch-a
          /ch-b
        /davbus
          /sound
        /swim3
        /nvram
        /ide
          /ata-disk
        /ide
          /atapi-disk
        /via-cuda
          /adb
            /keyboard
            /mouse
          /pram
          /rtc
          /power-mgt
      /ATY,mach64_3DUPro
        /VDig
        /Codec
    /perch
    /offscreen-display
/Gestalt

I am missing info from the following commands:

dev / ls
dump-device-tree
printenv
devalias
device-end
words

The command I find on the internet for disabling the built-in GPU of the beige G3 is this:

setenv pci-probe-list fffbffff

but I don't know how well that works and I can't see in the code how that value is used (at least not without understanding each line of forth code).


ADB is at /Devices/device-tree/pci/mac-io/via-cuda/adb which is under pci but I don't know if any of the probe bits would disable it. But doesn't the check for Command-Option-P-R of Command-Option-O-F happen before OpenFirmware starts in that case zapping pram would fix it.

this is also why OWR Macs have a fairly limited NVRAMRC space (and why you cant run Sonnets PCI bridge Patches and the OS X patches on an AAPL,e411 (TAM/5500/6500) machine at the same time)

Right. There's 8K of NVRAM. 1K for misc options like sound volume, etc, 1K for NVRAM properties (a GPU can save the current display resolution/settings), and 2K for Open Firmware properties (including nvramrc). However, there is 4K of NVRAM that is mostly unused which could be used to store a Open Firmware script. This could effectively tripple the size of the nvramrc script. I don't remember what the 4K is supposed to be for.

Other options would be to put code in a PCIe option rom (requires probe) or a file (requires probed disk partition and file system access).

I remember one of the last things I was working on in XPostFacto was to make the old world rom's nvram behave more like new world rom's nvram - at least in respect to allowing variable length nvram properties for devices like GPUs. Looking at the XPostFacto code (XPostFacto400b5), compared to my version, I see that my code was also implementing the nvramrc split script idea (in the nvram kext and in the XPostFacto preferences app) so 4K+2K nvram scripts is possible. I don't think I ever finished debugging it but I should maybe check it into GitHub anyway...

 

[TzunamiOSX]

I have a G3 266 Beige MT Rev. B with many upgrades

500 MHz G4
Radeon 9200
Gigabit Ethernet
Sonnet Trio (ATA 133, FW, USB 2.0)
SSD

OS 9 and 10.4.11

Post Your SSD/CF SATA/PATA PowerPC Benchmark Results

Power Macintosh G3 Beige (G4 Upgrade) Tempo Trio ATA 133/FireWire 400/USB 2.0 PCI

forums.macrumors.com

So what are the problems you have? Perhaps I can help you.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Double post

 

[DearthnVader]

I have a G3 266 Beige MT Rev. B with many upgrades

500 MHz G4
Radeon 9200
Gigabit Ethernet
Sonnet Trio (ATA 133, FW, USB 2.0)
SSD

OS 9 and 10.4.11

So what are the problems you have, perhaps I can help.

Mostly just the issue with the Startup disk, tho I seem to of half resolved it. Now when I boot off AAPL,ROM the Startup Disk works and respects my selection as long as I don't boot OS X. If I select 10.2.8 it boots Jaguar fine, but then if I choose to boot from OS X's Startup Disk, it just continues to boot Jaguar.

I upgraded to a Sonnet Tango 2.0, but the USB 1.1 ports were not working under OS 9, and that is the reason I chose this card because it has the NEC chipset for USB and has compatibly with the classic Mac OS as well as USB 2.0 speeds under OS X 10.2.x+. Somewhere in getting USB 1.1 to work proper I must have reset something that got the classic startup disk half working again.

It would be helpful if I knew the proper procedure for reseting the Cuda switch?

I think anytime you do an upgrade on these old world Macs a Cuda reset is advised, most specifically when you add a CPU upgrade. I don't have the VRM that is troublesome, just got lucky one that one, as I never knew it could burn the logicboard or CPU if you do a G4 upgrade on that VRM.

I need to get a new PRAM battery, that maybe one of the issues I'm having, can anyone link me to the proper PRAM battery for the Beige G3?

I was thinking to do a pepper CUDA reset, you unplug the Mac, and press and hold the CUDA rest button for 10 seconds, but I think it requires the voltage from the PRAM battery to do the reset?

The Startup disk was working fine before I did the G4 upgrade, with the original G3 266 I could select OS 9/8.5/OS X just fine and it would boot each from each.

 

[DearthnVader]

Here is another issue I am having, when I chose to boot OS X, if I remove the ATA Bus drive I chose to boot from, it soft bricks the machine. I power on and get the boot chime, but no video and the machine does not attempt to boot or respond to anything other than a hard reset from the ADB keyboard.

The only thing that gets the machine booting again is to replace the ATA Bus drive I removed that OS X was to be booted from. Then everything works as it should, I get boot video, I can reset the PRAM via the ADB kbd or hold OPT to boot off AAPL,ROM to boot the classic Mac OS.

Not a big deal, as I'm just switching drives around a lot to find the proper combination I want, but I worry what would happen if the drive I'm booting OS X from dies?

Happens with Xpostfacto and native booting Jaguar.

 

[LightBulbFun]

Mostly just the issue with the Startup disk, tho I seem to of half resolved it. Now when I boot off AAPL,ROM the Startup Disk works and respects my selection as long as I don't boot OS X. If I select 10.2.8 it boots Jaguar fine, but then if I choose to boot from OS X's Startup Disk, it just continues to boot Jaguar.

did you install Xpostfacto and its patches to 10.2.8? one of the things it does is as Joevt says is change how NVRAM is handled, so 10.2.8's startup disk may well be trying to bless OS 9.2.2 as if its on a NWR Mac rather then as it should be on an OWR Mac

I upgraded to a Sonnet Tango 2.0, but the USB 1.1 ports were not working under OS 9, and that is the reason I chose this card because it has the NEC chipset for USB and has compatibly with the classic Mac OS as well as USB 2.0 speeds under OS X 10.2.x+. Somewhere in getting USB 1.1 to work proper I must have reset something that got the classic startup disk half working again.

thats normal Mac OS 9.2.2 only ever installs whats detected at install time, so if you install Mac OS 9.2.2 on a G3 beige and then after install, plop in a USB card it wont work as the USB card drivers wont have been installed, you either need to have the USB card installed at install time, manually specfify the USB card drivers in the OS 9 installer or manually install the extenstions yourself

https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/usb-adapter-card-support-146

to reset CUDA you only need to press the button and it does it

Here is another issue I am having, when I chose to boot OS X, if I remove the ATA Bus drive I chose to boot from, it soft bricks the machine. I power on and get the boot chime, but no video and the machine does not attempt to boot or respond to anything other than a hard reset from the ADB keyboard.

The only thing that gets the machine booting again is to replace the ATA Bus drive I removed that OS X was to be booted from. Then everything works as it should, I get boot video, I can reset the PRAM via the ADB kbd or hold OPT to boot off AAPL,ROM to boot the classic Mac OS.

Not a big deal, as I'm just switching drives around a lot to find the proper combination I want, but I worry what would happen if the drive I'm booting OS X from dies?

Happens with Xpostfacto and native booting Jaguar.

that just sounds like a good old OWR Mac Quirk, I recall that happening quite a few times with my various Beige Macs

pulling the PRAM battery (making sure the PSU caps are discharged to by jabbing the power button once unplugged too) and waiting a couple minutes always got things working again

as previously mentioned im pretty sure its impossible to brick a Beige mac with bad NVRAM settings or such

 

[Project Alice]

My Beige G3 tower is a 300MHz Rev 3, with a G4 in it as well. I have never been able to use startup disk, only ever Xpostfacto even when working with Jaguar, though now it's 10.4.11. It always starts up with like a paragraph of PCI errors, then proceeds to boot OS 9 off the internal IDE bus. I then can use XPF to switch to Tiger. The machine will absolutely not boot any version of OS X, even supported ones, off the internal IDE bus. Only from the ATA133 card I installed. And this is a Rev 3 Beige. I'd definitely say you lucked out as far as weird Beige G3 issues go.

Also, I have a PowerBook G3 wallstreet (PDQ) 266MHz that also is weird with OS X. I also had to install Jaguar using XPF, even though it's officially supported. It just wouldn't boot it?‍♂️ And obviously start up disk can't be used on that one either, I have to boot into OS 9 and choose 10.2 from XPF. OWR Macs are just weird with OS X.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

Mostly just the issue with the Startup disk, tho I seem to of half resolved it. Now when I boot off AAPL,ROM the Startup Disk works and respects my selection as long as I don't boot OS X. If I select 10.2.8 it boots Jaguar fine, but then if I choose to boot from OS X's Startup Disk, it just continues to boot Jaguar.

I upgraded to a Sonnet Tango 2.0, but the USB 1.1 ports were not working under OS 9, and that is the reason I chose this card because it has the NEC chipset for USB and has compatibly with the classic Mac OS as well as USB 2.0 speeds under OS X 10.2.x+. Somewhere in getting USB 1.1 to work proper I must have reset something that got the classic startup disk half working again.

It would be helpful if I knew the proper procedure for reseting the Cuda switch?

I think anytime you do an upgrade on these old world Macs a Cuda reset is advised, most specifically when you add a CPU upgrade. I don't have the VRM that is troublesome, just got lucky one that one, as I never knew it could burn the logicboard or CPU if you do a G4 upgrade on that VRM.

I need to get a new PRAM battery, that maybe one of the issues I'm having, can anyone link me to the proper PRAM battery for the Beige G3?

I was thinking to do a pepper CUDA reset, you unplug the Mac, and press and hold the CUDA rest button for 10 seconds, but I think it requires the voltage from the PRAM battery to do the reset?

The Startup disk was working fine before I did the G4 upgrade, with the original G3 266 I could select OS 9/8.5/OS X just fine and it would boot each from each.

I'm really sure i had this problem too, but my sonnet has a extra control panel for that called Startup Disk X.

In the reality XpostFact is the only tool for me to select the bootdrive

Or perhaps something is wrong with your G4. you can test it by using Unreal flyby intro. If you see small lines in the rendering, there is a problem with the G4 that I cannot specify any further.

 

[TzunamiOSX]

I upgraded to a Sonnet Tango 2.0, but the USB 1.1 ports were not working under OS 9, and that is the reason I chose this card because it has the NEC chipset for USB and has compatibly with the classic Mac OS as well as USB 2.0 speeds under OS X 10.2.x+. Somewhere in getting USB 1.1 to work proper I must have reset something that got the classic startup disk half working again.

You must reinstall the USB driver

not sure, but i think these are the right one (read point 3)

https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/usb-adapter-card-support-146

https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macos-usb-and-firewire-support