Better Pitching Performance

[creator2456]

Keyword is pitching.

I have to say that it is hands down the 20 Strikeout Game. For a perfect game a pitcher needs all 8 teammates to have good days and a little luck. The 20 strikeouts is just pure dominance on the part of the pitcher.

 

[steviem]

I don't know much about Baseball, but I feel that the better individual performance would be from a 20 strikeout game. However, forcing bad hits to be easily caught, or running out a player when they hit should be recognised for the skill of the pitcher. Especially when a hit goes straight to a fielder and they only have to put their glove out to catch the ball.

Like in cricket, a bowler gets recognition when they force a player to be caught out, and causing poor contact takes as much skill as bowling a player out or causing an LBW.

A friend and I recently bought baseball gloves (really cheaply) and have been going to a park just playing catch, we're used to using our hands to catch, and more importantly, our dominant hands were taught to 'control' the catch so at first we were terrible catching with our left hands, but after a few minutes it becomes a lot easier to catch just about any throw, I even caught a couple of balls whilst diving!

Anyway, the reason for that little tale was that if a ball is coming right towards you and fairly slowly, as a fielder, you don't have to be playing well to catch it, and two english guys who used to play cricket (badly) can prove that!

 

[SuperCompu2]

I agree with the 20 SO pitching performance.

Perfect game: ok, you kept your control and didnt throw any meatballs. Either the hitters stunk that day or your fielders are great. Woo hoo.

20 Strikeouts: Flat-out nasty. Pitcher needs no help, batters never stood a chance. Shows superior command and dominant pitching. Definitely fun game to watch if you're rooting for the pitcher throwing that day!

 

[InvalidUserID]

20 strikeouts.

If a pitcher gets 10 Ks, its pretty dominant already so 20 is simply lights out. 27 batters times at least 3 pitches is 81 but as everyone knows, pitchers don't throw all strikes so 20 Ks would require quite a bit of pitcher stamina.

 

[Gonzo3333]

20 strikeouts for shure. If you can strike out 20 batters that means you have a great deal of command and control which equals performance. Not teammates helping you get outs. Anyway, I would like to say congrats to Mark Buehrle. I am also a Cubs fan not a White Sox fan. He had some great support from his team including the catch from Dewayne Wise to keep it perfect. At least the Cubs finally got to first place.

 

[pb1300]

Just some statistical points:

21 people have struck out at 18-20 batters

16 people have pitched perfect games


IMO, the perfect game is one of the most difficult achievements in sports, thus is being called "perfect." Not only do you have to have "perfec" location, but everything else around you has to work out "perfectly." Both are rare achievements, but I think the perfect game is the tougher of the two.

 

[Prof.]

Being a gay male, I interpreted the title of this thread in a completely different way.

 

[Gregg2]

20 strikeouts for shure. ... I am also a Cubs fan not a White Sox fan.

Then maybe you heard Len and Bob discussing this question. They both came down on the side of the perfect game. My first reaction when I heard the question was 20 strikeouts. But, a pitcher could strike out 20, get seven outs from his defense, and surrender as many hits as the manager would allow (especially run-producing hits) and still lose the game ... especially if his opponent threw, say, a perfect game. Now, which performance was better?

It's not an easy question to answer, really.

Wasn't it Harvey Haddix of the Pirates who lost a no-hitter? I mean, he threw a no-hitter, but lost the game.

 

[.Andy]

Being a gay male, I interpreted the title of this thread in a completely different way.

Don't stereotype. I play golf as well and I'm not gay.

 

[ucfgrad93]

I say the perfect game is better.

 

[Gonzo3333]

That is a great point Gregg2.

 

[Silencio]

I voted perfect game, even though the points about teammates' necessary contributions to a perfect game are very valid. After all, it was only a couple of weeks ago that Jonathan Sanchez was denied a perfect game due to a teammate's fielding error. He still finished the game allowing no hits and no walks.

 

[Gregg2]

After all, it was only a couple of weeks ago that Jonathan Sanchez was denied a perfect game due to a teammate's fielding error. He still finished the game allowing no hits and no walks.

And the umpire comes into play sometimes also. He can blow a call at first base, and the batter becomes a baserunner when he should have been out, etc.

Then there's the official scorer... Last season, C.C. Sabathia, pitching for the Brewers, was denied a no-hitter because the OS gave a guy a hit on what was clearly an error by none other than C.C. himself. He finished the game, and won, but it was a 1-hitter.

 

[Signal-11]

Yes, but the question isn't about the overall game. It's about the performance of one individual.

What's more impressive in terms of what it means? Perfect game. What's more difficult to accomplish as an individual pitcher? 20 Ks.

 

[Designer Dale]

Pitching records for perfect games can be found running all the way back to 1880, while 20 K games are only documented AFAIK back to 1996. So the perfect game has more significance in the game. 16 perfect games in 129 years makes it more of an accomplishment to me. Baseball is a team sport, and all the perfect games were shutout wins.

Perfect Games 1880-2009

American League

Cy Young Boston 3-0

Addie joss Cleveland 1-0

Charlie Robertson Chicago 2-0

Don Larsen New York 2-0

Catfish Hunter Oakland 4-0

Len Barker Cleveland 3-0

Mike Witt California 1-0

Kenny Rogers Texas 4-0

David Wells New York 4-0

David Cone New York 6-0

Mark Buehrle Chicago 5-0


National League

Lee Richmond Worcester 1-0

John Ward Providence 5-0

Jim Bunning Philadelphia 6-0

Sandy Koufax Los Angeles 1-0

Tom Browning Cincinnati 1-0

Dennis Martinez Montreal 2-0

Randy Johnson Arizona 2-0


20 strikeout games 1996-2001

Kerry Wood

Roger Clemens
Roger Clemens

Randy Johnson

 

[jecapaga]

20 strikeout games 1996-2001

Kerry Wood

Roger Clemens
Roger Clemens

Randy Johnson

You mean:

20 strikeout games 1996-2001

Kerry Wood

Roger Clemens*
Roger Clemens*

Randy Johnson

 

[Gregg2]

What's more impressive in terms of what it means? Perfect game. What's more difficult to accomplish as an individual pitcher? 20 Ks.

Absolutely correct. There are good reasons for that. If a pitcher is throwing a no-hitter or perfect game, chances are the opponent has not scored even a single run. Therefore, the manager is not likely to take him out of the game. But, that's not necessarily true for a pitcher who's getting more batters out via a strikeout rather than with help from his defense (not counting the catcher).

A relevant example is one Carlos Marmol on my Chicago Cubs (fan since I was old enough to hold a bat). When his control is sharp, or even when it isn't, his stuff is virtually un-hittable. He has a low "batting average against" and a high strikeout to total outs ratio, but he walks more batters than he strikes out. He gets many others to tap a ball weakly to a teammate. He frequently walks more batters in an inning than he gets outs, period. If Pinella were to start him and leave him in, he could conceivably strike out 20 or more, but lose the game 8-7.

So, the definitive answer to the narrow question of which is a better pitching performance; perfect game or 20 Ks is: It depends. First I have to know what else happened in the game that a given pitcher got that many strikeouts. Fair?

Rare does not equal better, even when the achievement is positive. (It's probably also rare for one player to commit 3 or more errors in one game. Willie Davis did that in the World Series with the Dodgers.)