Booting from a USB drive on a PowerPC

[FocusAndEarnIt]

I've come to realize that booting off a USB drive is not so easy for PowerPC. I've spent several hours trying to figure this out.

Essentially, ideally I would like to install a fresh copy of Tiger onto my SSD that is currently in a USB enclosure. The Tiger installer says it can't be installed since it cannot boot from the drive.

I then compromised and decided to just clone the drive instead of a fresh install. I used Carbon Copy Cloner to clone the current HDD to the SSD - telling it to backup everything. (This was after I formatted the drive with Apple Partition Map)

I then went into open firmware and tried to boot using these instructions.
With their guidance, I would do this:
1. dev / ls
2. identify where the USB disk is, in my case it is usb@1b/disk@1
3. I'd then type in /pci@f2000000/usb@1b/disk@1
And it would come back as "Unknown word" I'm stuck here.

I would eventually type in:
4. devalias ud /pci@f2000000/usb@1b/disk@1
5. dir ud:1,\
6. boot ud:1,\System\Library\CoreServices\BootX

Any thoughts on how I can get this iMac G4 1.25 GHz (20") w/ USB 2.0 to boot from a SSD in an enclosure?

I'm wondering if the clone isn't the way to go. So maybe a better question would be, how can I install Mac OS X Tiger on an SSD in an enclosure? (And then boot from it)?

 

[Amethyst1]

Any thoughts on how I can get this iMac G4 1.25 GHz (20") w/ USB 2.0 to boot from a SSD in an enclosure?

Use a FireWire enclosure. It just works.

 

[Strategia]

Here's what works for me.
1. Open OF
2. dev usb1
3. ls (if this doesn't work, try dev usb0 or dev usb2, then ls again)
4. dev disk@1
5. pwd
6. boot [PATH YOU FOUND IN STEP 5]:3,\System\Library\CoreServices\BootX
If this doesn't work, make sure your USB disk is properly formatted with Apple Partition Map and the Tiger files are on the 3rd partition.

 

[FocusAndEarnIt]

Use a FireWire enclosure. It just works.

Haha - well, I'm embarrassed. When I read this, it brought me back to my FireWire days on my iMac G5 and iBook G4 -- lots of FW target disk mode back then. I then remembered I had an old Iomega FW400 2.5" drive. It was pretty old, hadn't used it in probably nearly 8 years or so - so I dusted it off and took it apart. I wasn't sure if it'd be SATA but indeed it was. Plopped my SATA SSD in there and what do you know - the iMac boots up. It just works. (Miss you, Steve...)

@Strategia - thank you for your help!

This particular SSD is actually an Apple OEM 128gb SSD from a non-retina 15" MacBook Pro. The youngest this thing could possibly be is 10 years old. Potentially older, but not by much.

Here's the Xbench between the SSD via FW400 and the built in 80gb 7200 RPM.

Pretty underwhelming... or is my impression off? I was expecting it to be a bit faster.

Is this because the drive is ancient? How much of a role is FW400 playing here? I'd not expect FW400 to be the limiting reagent, so to speak.

If I picked up a new SSD online, what speeds would I expect when attached to the IDE cables inside? (I have an IDE to SATA converter). Would the fastest option be to keep the boot drive off of FW400 on a new SSD?

 

[Amethyst1]

Is this because the drive is ancient? How much of a role is FW400 playing here?

400 MBit/s translates to 50MB/s, and that's not taking the overhead of the interface and the enclosure's bridge chip into account. Yes, hooking up the SSD internally via IDE would be faster. Stay away from old, slow, quirky and overpriced native IDE SSDs though, SATA with an adapter is the way to go.

 

[FocusAndEarnIt]

Hooked the drive up to my 16" MacBook Pro on a USB 3.0 enclosure, and got the following:

Did some reading and it seems IDE maxes out around 133 MB/s, so it seems there'd be no advantage in buying a newer SSD as IDE will limit things (unless I want more space, of course). Would others agree?

 

[eyoungren]

Hooked the drive up to my 16" MacBook Pro on a USB 3.0 enclosure, and got the following:

View attachment 1719323


Did some reading and it seems IDE maxes out around 133 MB/s, so it seems there'd be no advantage in buying a newer SSD as IDE will limit things (unless I want more space, of course). Would others agree?

SSDs provide a marginal improvement to boot times and file access for PowerPC Macs. But, because you have to convert from SATA to PATA you will never get the full speed of the SATA drive itself.

Additionally, you are going to have to rely on the SSDs firmware GC (Garbage Collection) because PowerPC has no TRIM. Newer SSDs will have better GC, but either way, you'll need to leave at least 25% of your total drive space empty. That allows for the firmware to do GC without the system problems that result from lack of space.

How much capacity you want to use is up to you, it doesn't really enter the discussion. In using an SSD (assuming a SATA SSD) you avoid any large drive limitations (those only apply to IDE/PATA drives).

 

[Amethyst1]

Hooked the drive up to my 16" MacBook Pro on a USB 3.0 enclosure, and got the following:

Looks right. What SSD (make/model) is it, by the way?

Did some reading and it seems IDE maxes out around 133 MB/s, so it seems there'd be no advantage in buying a newer SSD as IDE will limit things (unless I want more space, of course).

IDE actually maxes out at 167 MB/s but that was only implemented in CompactFlash cards. The iMac's IDE interface maxes out at 100 MB/s, so after taking some overhead into account, you're looking at 80~85 MB/s or so. That's still a nice boost over the stock hard drive but not the main point - it's the ridiculously low access times that make an SSD feel fast when booting up or launching applications.

In using an SSD (assuming a SATA SSD) you avoid any large drive limitations (those only apply to IDE/PATA drives).

If OP's using an adapter to hook up the SSD to the iMac's IDE bus, these limitations do apply. Since it can do 48-bit LBA, it's not limited to 128 GB though.

 

[alex_free]

Use a FireWire enclosure. It just works.

Wish this was applicable to all PowerPC Macs (looking at you OG clamshell)

 

[TheShortTimer]

I've come to realize that booting off a USB drive is not so easy for PowerPC.

It depends on the PowerPC Mac. On some, it's so easy that you only need to hold down Option during the booting up phase and you're on your way. On others, USB booting can require fiddling with Open Firmware.

Wish this was applicable to all PowerPC Macs (looking at you OG clamshell)

Also looking at my iMac G3.

 

[remi75]

Here's what works for me.
1. Open OF
2. dev usb1
3. ls (if this doesn't work, try dev usb0 or dev usb2, then ls again)
4. dev disk@1
5. pwd
6. boot [PATH YOU FOUND IN STEP 5]:3,\System\Library\CoreServices\BootX
If this doesn't work, make sure your USB disk is properly formatted with Apple Partition Map and the Tiger files are on the 3rd partition.

I'm having the same issue. I tried your suggestions above but i keep getting Warning: sector size mismatch! can't OPEN: hd:,\\:tbxi
Can't open device or file

THe USB is 16GB, I tried partition 8GB for the MASOs leopard, that didnt work so I tried leaving it at 16GB and making a bootable USB.
Any suggestions?

 

[Strategia]

I'm having the same issue. I tried your suggestions above but i keep getting Warning: sector size mismatch! can't OPEN: hd:,\\:tbxi
Can't open device or file

THe USB is 16GB, I tried partition 8GB for the MASOs leopard, that didnt work so I tried leaving it at 16GB and making a bootable USB.
Any suggestions?

Based on the error you received, it seems like it's trying to boot off the hard drive. Can you list the contents of System\Library\CoreServices with dir [PATH YOU FOUND EARLIER]:3,\System\Library\CoreServices?

 

[AphoticD]

I think I may know where the problem lies. When using Disk Utility to restore to a USB thumb drive, the device is treated as "Whole Device" instead of creating a partition map before restoring the installer iso.

You can see this if you first get your device disk id (i.e. disk9) via `diskutil list`, then `diskutil info disk9` on my Mac outputs;

❯ diskutil info disk9
   Device Identifier:        disk9
   Device Node:              /dev/disk9
   Whole:                    Yes
   Part of Whole:            disk9
   Device / Media Name:      Classic

   Volume Name:              Untitled

   Mounted:                  Yes
   Mount Point:              /Volumes/Untitled

   File System Personality:  Journaled HFS+
   Type (Bundle):            hfs
   Name (User Visible):      Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
   Journal:                  Journal size 8192 KB at offset 0x3c000
   Owners:                   Disabled

   Content (IOContent):      None
   OS Can Be Installed:      No
   Media Type:               Generic
   Protocol:                 USB
   SMART Status:             Not Supported
   Volume UUID:              8321E26F-A2E9-3540-961D-A76270D5ED41

   Total Size:               7.7 GB (7742685184 Bytes) (exactly 15122432 512-Byte-Units)
   Volume Free Space:        7.7 GB (7712305152 Bytes) (exactly 15063096 512-Byte-Units)
   Device Block Size:        512 Bytes
   Allocation Block Size:    4096 Bytes

   Read-Only Media:          No
   Read-Only Volume:         No

   Device Location:          External
   Removable Media:          Yes
   Media Removal:            Software-Activated

   Virtual:                  No
   OS 9 Drivers:             No
   Low Level Format:         Not supported

You'll also see that during `diskutil list` you'll get something like;

/dev/disk9 (external, physical):
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:                            Untitled               *7.7 GB     disk9

Open Firmware is not going to be able to boot from this.

What I found is on newer OS X / macOS, it is necessary to use the diskutil CLI to properly format the disk partition map before restoring.

This sets up the partition map on the USB drive in APM format;

diskutil eraseDisk HFS+ Leopard APM disk9

Now in Disk Utility, you should see the USB device node, followed by the volume name instead of just the volume name only.

When you restore your Tiger/Leopard iso onto the device volume (not the device top level, but the volume within), you should end up with a bootable OS X USB with a valid Apple Partition Map.

The output of `diskutil list` should now show the full parition map, where the Bootable partition is "#2" which translates to `:3` partition in Open Firmware.

/dev/disk9 (external, physical):
   #:                       TYPE NAME                    SIZE       IDENTIFIER
   0:     Apple_partition_scheme                        *7.7 GB     disk9
   1:        Apple_partition_map                         32.3 KB    disk9s1
   2:                  Apple_HFS Leopard                 7.6 GB     disk9s3

You should now be able to plug this USB into your PowerPC mac, drop into Open Firmware and run the OF steps supplied by @Strategia

 

[Macbookprodude]

Speaking of GC, do m2 sata SSD's have GC ? I am running this in my G4 Titanium.

 

[Amethyst1]

Speaking of GC, do m2 sata SSD's have GC ? I am running this in my G4 Titanium.

Yes of course.

 

[Ursus1968]

I've come to realize that booting off a USB drive is not so easy for PowerPC. I've spent several hours trying to figure this out.

Essentially, ideally I would like to install a fresh copy of Tiger onto my SSD that is currently in a USB enclosure. The Tiger installer says it can't be installed since it cannot boot from the drive.

I then compromised and decided to just clone the drive instead of a fresh install. I used Carbon Copy Cloner to clone the current HDD to the SSD - telling it to backup everything. (This was after I formatted the drive with Apple Partition Map)

I then went into open firmware and tried to boot using these instructions.
With their guidance, I would do this:
1. dev / ls
2. identify where the USB disk is, in my case it is usb@1b/disk@1
3. I'd then type in /pci@f2000000/usb@1b/disk@1
And it would come back as "Unknown word" I'm stuck here.

I would eventually type in:
4. devalias ud /pci@f2000000/usb@1b/disk@1
5. dir ud:1,\
6. boot ud:1,\System\Library\CoreServices\BootX

Any thoughts on how I can get this iMac G4 1.25 GHz (20") w/ USB 2.0 to boot from a SSD in an enclosure?

I'm wondering if the clone isn't the way to go. So maybe a better question would be, how can I install Mac OS X Tiger on an SSD in an enclosure? (And then boot from it)?

So...did you ever get it to work? I have two iMac G4 20" 1.25 GHz, and is experimenting to get them to boot from USB (not because I need to , it works very nicely to boot/install from install DVDs over FireWire. But I like the challenge of trying to make it work )

 

[barracuda156]

This works: http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20060301112336384

 

[DistroHopper39B]

If your device doesn't show up in Open Firmware, here is the most foolproof solution that I figured out. (This should work on any PowerPC Mac - tested and working on an iBook G3 Clamshell and iMac G4 1st gen.)
1. Acquire a powered USB hub. Any one should work - this is the one I have: https://www.ebay.com/itm/165404729798
2. Plug the USB drive into the hub, and connect the hub to a wall power source and the computer.
3. Turn on the computer and boot into open firmware (cmd-option-o-f).
4. Type in the following commands:

dev usb0
ls

If "disk" doesn't show up anywhere in the displayed tree, or if the command simply outputs "ok", type

dev usb1

and

ls

. Continue adding to that number until the USB appears at the bottom of a code tree.
Once "disk" shows up, type:

boot usbX/hub@X/disk@X:,\\:tbxi

replacing "X" with the numbers displayed in the tree. If there are multiple "hub" values in the tree displayed above, then add them.
(If your USB contains a Linux distro AND this process with tbxi doesn't work, replacing ":,\\:tbxi" with ":,\\yaboot" or ":,\grub\grub" might work. If this still doesn't work, replace ":," with ":2," [all without quotes])
Here's a picture of Open Firmware (this configuration is tested and working):

 

[TheBang]

If your device doesn't show up in Open Firmware, here is the most foolproof solution that I figured out. (This should work on any PowerPC Mac - tested and working on an iBook G3 Clamshell and iMac G4 1st gen.)
1. Acquire a powered USB hub. Any one should work

I just wanted to say that this worked for me. I had a USB SSD drive that I was trying to boot from, and it just would not show up in OpenFirmware when connected directly to my PowerBook G4.

I plugged it into a powered hub, and it showed up in OF right away. I was then able to use @Strategia's instructions to boot from it. I'm sure @DistroHopper39B's instructions for booting would have worked too.

 

[ajzimmerman]

I was able to boot a Power Mac G4 from USB with a bit of work. I am seeing how ridiculous iBookG4 is with USB's now, even with your hub method. Unfortunately I've had zero success. I'm considering buying a Tiger or Leopard install disk at this point. I also found it amusing people on YT talking about "restoring" a Sorbet Leopard dmg over onto another partition and "just rebooting into it." I've tried DD'ing ISO's onto a USB, onto a separate partition. Booting from separate partitions doesn't work. Tried booting from USB's I've made using Etcher on another computer. I am actually starting to think I will not be able to do this with USB's at all. Tried this standard method as well,

or

(always goes to NO boot sign)

or

boot ud:x,\System\Library\CoreServices\BootX


I also tried 4 different DVD's I've burned. I think maybe this dvd drive doesn't read them at all, because it just spits them out. Unfortunately it wouldn't even read a CD. But it reads it just fine after it boots.

The ironic thing is the Power Mac G4 boot into Tiger/Leopard/FreeBSD without much trouble. I think it would be cool to update the BIOS on this thing to OpenBIOS if possible, but I doubt it will ever happen.

 

[AphoticD]

Try feeding that boot command with a partition number after the colon at the disk definition. ‘3’ usually does the trick on a USB drive formatted with an Apple Partition Map.

I’m sure there would be a way to list the partition map in Open Firmware, but I usually rely on the output of ‘diskutil list’ from terminal (on another Mac). [Where partition #2 translates to 3 in OF as described in my reply above from Feb 2021]

 

[Tratkazir_the_1st]

@ajzimmerman
Can you pls list output of devalias command?
Before "boot" command - it is a good idea to try "dir", just to see what happens .

 

[ajzimmerman]

@Tratkazir_the_1st I ended up buying a DVD burner and just going that route. I have tried dir, and other methods on the iBook but never could boot from USB...the power Mac is a bit less fickle but I prefer just using DVD's now.

 

[MysticCow]

Use a FireWire enclosure. It just works.

GOD, I miss FireWire. But would it be faster to boot all the time from the FW drive or from a “ye olde” hard drive.

 

[TheShortTimer]

GOD, I miss FireWire. But would it be faster to boot all the time from the FW drive or from a “ye olde” hard drive.

I'm fortunate to able to continue using FireWire for the foreseeable future with most of my Macs. Finding (SATA) enclosures at decent prices is becoming harder though.