Canon HV30 and FinalCut Express

[costabunny]

Hi

I am buying a Canon HV30 (as its the one I have decided to get based on features, quality and price).

I have Final Cut Express (latest).

I just wanted to get a feel for using these together as its been a looooong time since I dabbled with video (last time was a 133MHz i586 clone with Premiere and a striped 13GB IDE array).

I will be mainly be playing around with it for a few months to see if I still have the video 'bug', before getting FCPro and a good camera.

Anyone here use this setup? any issues I should be aware of?

(I have a MacPro Octophallus with lots of ram and lots of RAID)

 

[costabunny]

noone has a HV30? awwwww c'mon guys help a gal out with some pointers

 

[Courtaj]

It's Christmas (hic) day . . .

 

[DPA]

Don't waste you money on a camcorder. Put the money towards a nice HD professional camera. If your going to go for the FCStudio setup, you are semi-serious to serious about video. I would recommend a Sony over a Canon. The lens that comes with the Canon XL series cameras has a major auto-focusing problem. It has trouble focusing on a person talking while standing in one place or things like that where the frame doesn't change much. Sony cameras in the same price range works much better. They both work fine with Final Cut basically because thy record to a MiniDV tape. If you are looking to go the HDD route then I can't tell you too much. Besides the fact that if money is absolutely not an issue then take a gander at the RED cameras here. There is only one model out now and they are very new. Founded by the president of the Oakley glasses company. They record in a quality just under IMAX which is 4K. The new models coming out are supposed to be able to record in 168 mm and IMAX is 170 mm.

 

[DPA]

It's Christmas (hic) day . . .

and what can you expect on christmas, really?

 

[Policar]

Don't waste you money on a camcorder. Put the money towards a nice HD professional camera. If your going to go for the FCStudio setup, you are semi-serious to serious about video. I would recommend a Sony over a Canon. The lens that comes with the Canon XL series cameras has a major auto-focusing problem. It has trouble focusing on a person talking while standing in one place or things like that where the frame doesn't change much. Sony cameras in the same price range works much better. They both work fine with Final Cut basically because thy record to a MiniDV tape. If you are looking to go the HDD route then I can't tell you too much. Besides the fact that if money is absolutely not an issue then take a gander at the RED cameras here. There is only one model out now and they are very new. Founded by the president of the Oakley glasses company. They record in a quality just under IMAX which is 4K. The new models coming out are supposed to be able to record in 168 mm and IMAX is 170 mm.

Hate to be a jerk, but this info is wrong, wrong, wrong...

The cheapest Canon XL-something camera is about $8,0000, so that's a whole different category once you're spending that much. And the majority of professional work is done in manual focus anyway... The hv30 has an entirely different (and adjustable) auto-focus/"instant focus"/focus assist system that has nothing to do with the high-end Canons.

The Canon HV30 is simply unbelievably for the price. If you want to spend $8000, can can get a much better camera, but for the money the hv30 can't be beat. I've shot extensively on the dvx100, hvx200, 16mm, and used the Red and a bunch of other Canons and Sonys, too... If you want to spend $5,000+, the EX-1 is best for the money (from what I've seen), inbetween there's a lot of options, but at the $500 price point, the Canons are the best. The Sonys are fine, too, but the low-end Canons are awesome.

What you should know:
•If you shoot 24p you can't edit those 24 frames directly; you have interlacing, unless you use FCS2 and a convoluted conversion workflow. Only a problem if you want to author to progressive media or do extensive visual effects.
•The hv30 needs a lot of light (it's natively around 80ISO) or it gets grainy. So bring light if you can. Also, the hdv compression is very, very bad for fast motion so be careful of that. Because of the way the sensor works images get wobbly if you pan incredibly fast, too.
•Editing hdv is slow. FCE doesn't have pro-res, but it should edit native okay. The apple intermediate codec is fast but looks fairly bad. So make sure you've got a very fast set-up.

Otherwise...go for it. I'm not trying to argue or start a fight; I just want to provide correct information. Also, the Red is a nightmare to operate, it's not really "4k," and IMAX has 10 times the resolution it does. It can make nice images, though. But I don't seriously think you're going to spend $40,000 on that camera system, so don't sweat it! Get the hv30 and decide if you want to upgrade when the time comes.

 

[aki]

•Editing hdv is slow. FCE doesn't have pro-res, but it should edit native okay. The apple intermediate codec is fast but looks fairly bad. So make sure you've got a very fast set-up.

im using the hf10 with fcp and all works good but...usually i transcode to AIC for editing....is this true that it looses quality vs prores coz it looks good to me?? i thought the main thing for prores was the filesize

 

[Policar]

im using the hf10 with fcp and all works good but...usually i transcode to AIC for editing....is this true that it looses quality vs prores coz it looks good to me?? i thought the main thing for prores was the filesize

I don't know exactly. Both should be okay. I think AIC is fine for normal editing, but if you want to do effects in other applications and you have to keep re-compressing then prores degrades slower and is a better choice. I don't know too much about this, actually; I'm more a camera person than an editor.

 

[CaptainChunk]

Don't waste you money on a camcorder. Put the money towards a nice HD professional camera. If your going to go for the FCStudio setup, you are semi-serious to serious about video. I would recommend a Sony over a Canon. The lens that comes with the Canon XL series cameras has a major auto-focusing problem. It has trouble focusing on a person talking while standing in one place or things like that where the frame doesn't change much. Sony cameras in the same price range works much better. They both work fine with Final Cut basically because thy record to a MiniDV tape. If you are looking to go the HDD route then I can't tell you too much. Besides the fact that if money is absolutely not an issue then take a gander at the RED cameras here. There is only one model out now and they are very new. Founded by the president of the Oakley glasses company. They record in a quality just under IMAX which is 4K. The new models coming out are supposed to be able to record in 168 mm and IMAX is 170 mm.

I find it rather humorous that you're recommending professional cameras to someone who's obviously just dabbling in digital video at this point. The HV30 is a GREAT starter camera for someone who has FCE and is on the fence about whether or not to go all out on a more serious setup.

And FYI, you can't even touch a basic RED One package for under $35k. At the very least, you need a basic lens ($5k+ a pop for good PL mounts), storage media, batteries, rails, follow focus, etc. just to get started. And it's full of glitches that shouldn't be present in a professional camera system in both production and post production. I've worked post (digital assets, on-line and color) on a feature and two shorts using the RED One, so I believe I speak from experience.

 

[costabunny]

Thanks Guys

I think CptChunk nailed it. I used to use betacam and other pro gear before, but that was when I worked part time for a crappy production company.

Most of my filming will be in natural light. I want to setup a basic kit to play with really. If the bug is still with me then Ill get a good pro cam and FCP (but for now thats lots of money that would be wasted if I find my passion has wavered to the occasional film).

I didnt know about the 24p thing, so I'll have to watch that one - thanks.

I guess mostly Ill be shooting in standard HD mode (and yes to the person who mentioned HDD - I stay well clear of them - Tape for the win in my opinion). Easy for archive, keeps raw footage handy and most apps handle tape better. (and being old school it would feel wrong to be filming without tape - hell I even shoot stills on film sometimes).

I think Ill order the Apple FCE Training book and a keycap thingy (overlay?) for FCP (controls are much the same from what Ive read).

I have a second alu keyb so it should work nicely for me.

Now a big question - How easy is it to author a project to DVD movie from FCE? should I be considering outputting to a high quality format and using another App to conv/burn?

Thanks in advance guys (feels like I am learning all over again which is kinda cool)

 

[DPA]

Hate to be a jerk, but this info is wrong, wrong, wrong...

The cheapest Canon XL-something camera is about $8,0000, so that's a whole different category once you're spending that much. And the majority of professional work is done in manual focus anyway... The hv30 has an entirely different (and adjustable) auto-focus/"instant focus"/focus assist system that has nothing to do with the high-end Canons.

The Canon HV30 is simply unbelievably for the price. If you want to spend $8000, can can get a much better camera, but for the money the hv30 can't be beat. I've shot extensively on the dvx100, hvx200, 16mm, and used the Red and a bunch of other Canons and Sonys, too... If you want to spend $5,000+, the EX-1 is best for the money (from what I've seen), inbetween there's a lot of options, but at the $500 price point, the Canons are the best. The Sonys are fine, too, but the low-end Canons are awesome.

What you should know:
•If you shoot 24p you can't edit those 24 frames directly; you have interlacing, unless you use FCS2 and a convoluted conversion workflow. Only a problem if you want to author to progressive media or do extensive visual effects.
•The hv30 needs a lot of light (it's natively around 80ISO) or it gets grainy. So bring light if you can. Also, the hdv compression is very, very bad for fast motion so be careful of that. Because of the way the sensor works images get wobbly if you pan incredibly fast, too.
•Editing hdv is slow. FCE doesn't have pro-res, but it should edit native okay. The apple intermediate codec is fast but looks fairly bad. So make sure you've got a very fast set-up.

Otherwise...go for it. I'm not trying to argue or start a fight; I just want to provide correct information. Also, the Red is a nightmare to operate, it's not really "4k," and IMAX has 10 times the resolution it does. It can make nice images, though. But I don't seriously think you're going to spend $40,000 on that camera system, so don't sweat it! Get the hv30 and decide if you want to upgrade when the time comes.

I was telling her that she should just put the money towards a nice camera. The Sony that I was talking about (here) is 4900 retail and shoots full HD and SD. The low end Canon's can't be beat but my XL-1 and my 2 XL-2 cameras have big focusing problems with the lens that came with them. I bought a the same Sony after encountering these problems with the Canons. And a XL2 is not $8,000, they're somewhere around $4,000. I was just trying to say that the I think the Sony is a better camera is you don't want to change lens. FCE is a waste of money in my opinion if you want HD. In my previous post I was trying to suggest that if you plan on going big, then don't go small before. It's wasting the going small money.

 

[DPA]

I find it rather humorous that you're recommending professional cameras to someone who's obviously just dabbling in digital video at this point. The HV30 is a GREAT starter camera for someone who has FCE and is on the fence about whether or not to go all out on a more serious setup.

And FYI, you can't even touch a basic RED One package for under $35k. At the very least, you need a basic lens ($5k+ a pop for good PL mounts), storage media, batteries, rails, follow focus, etc. just to get started. And it's full of glitches that shouldn't be present in a professional camera system in both production and post production. I've worked post (digital assets, on-line and color) on a feature and two shorts using the RED One, so I believe I speak from experience.

I know how much Red packages are and that's why I said if money is defiantly not a factor. And she said she might get FCP and a better camera. I was just trying to show her a range of cameras and their specs to know what to look for. Very good information though, you obviously know your stuff.

 

[Policar]

I was telling her that she should just put the money towards a nice camera. The Sony that I was talking about (here) is 4900 retail and shoots full HD and SD. The low end Canon's can't be beat but my XL-1 and my 2 XL-2 cameras have big focusing problems with the lens that came with them. I bought a the same Sony after encountering these problems with the Canons. And a XL2 is not $8,000, they're somewhere around $4,000. I was just trying to say that the I think the Sony is a better camera is you don't want to change lens. FCE is a waste of money in my opinion if you want HD. In my previous post I was trying to suggest that if you plan on going big, then don't go small before. It's wasting the going small money.

From what I've heard, the V1U has serious issues with its progressive mode and is quite slow; virtually all HD cameras also shoot SD. That's a non-issue.

The XL1 and XL2 are years-old removable lens 3CCD SD prosumer cameras. The hv30 is a new HD compact 1CMOS HD consumer camera. The focusing technology has nothing in common between those models. The only HD XL-line camera, the XLH-1, is about $8,000 retail (now down to $6,500 on BH; I guess it's dropped in price in the past months); no one would buy an XL2 now. The hv30 is available for less than a tenth that price.

I agree that FCP is a better deal for the money than FCE, but other than that, you're spreading totally inane misinformation. And have you used the Red camera? For most serious work it's virtually inoperable without a camera crew of at least three people.

 

[DPA]

A thank you for clarification of my misinformation.

I (personally) have not used the Red camera but have been on many sets where the Red camera was in use. I didn't expect her to buy a Red camera. Don't get me wrong, the HV 30 is a great great camera. It is not a professional camera though. If she is not going into professional videography then don't buy a more expensive camera. If she is trying to start a wedding/event videography company or a production company, which it doesn't sound like she is, then she would have to invest in more than one professional camera, which I have had to do. I am more of an editor/digital compositor than camera operator. I could go on and on about Final Cut and not spread "totally insane misinformation." Spreading "totally insane misinformation" is not what I am here for, I am not trying to say one company is superior to another (expect for Apple) and I am defiantly not here to solicit people to buy a $30,000 Red package and hire a camera crew of 3+. I love to be in a forum of multiple people so if I am wrong because I have misunderstood some specs I can be corrected to help others. I AM HERE TO LEARN AND HELP PEOPLE. Thank you to all who have posted and corrected me. I have learned from this thread. I am also sorry to any who have read my information and have misinformed on any topic or subtopic I have spoken about. Once again, thank you to all who have corrected and I am sorry to any who have been misinformed.

 

[Policar]

I didn't mean to criticize so harshly. I said "inane" rather than "insane"--not crazy, but just nonsensical. And I still think recommending a $40,000 camera to someone looking to spend $500 doesn't make a lot of sense.

Sorry if I came off as mean, though. You're absolutely right that the hv30 is inappropriate for "professional" use due to its lack of manual controls and high quality sound inputs, among other things. But the question was about FCE compatibility and not about professional video. The Sony you mention is much more appropriate for professional use, but the hv30 is still a great camera to get started with.

 

[DPA]

Don't worry about my feelings, my ego is too big in a bad way as we have seen

I didn't mean to criticize so harshly. I said "inane" rather than "insane"--not crazy, but just nonsensical. And I still think recommending a $40,000 camera to someone looking to spend $500 doesn't make a lot of sense.

Sorry if I came off as mean, though. You're absolutely right that the hv30 is inappropriate for "professional" use due to its lack of manual controls and high quality sound inputs, among other things. But the question was about FCE compatibility and not about professional video. The Sony you mention is much more appropriate for professional use, but the hv30 is still a great camera to get started with.

It's nice to know I was right about something (ha ha). And don't worry about being mean or anything, it put me in my place in the special interest > Digital Video category here at MacRumors (thanks for that) which is Final Cut. And sorry for my poor vocabulary skills I read these things fast so I didn't pick that up. And not to further push my know-it-all-type ego but I wasn't suggesting it, I think that the Red camera show a top of the line camera and the website helped me understand more about cameras and video. I think knowing the specs of a low-end, consumer grade camera and a high-end, professional grade camera used in broadcast and film production is a good thing so you know what type of numbers and I think we both know how important numbers can be in video. Looking back, I do see that I got way off topic and I'm sorry to Costabunny and any others who's time I wasted when you thought you were reading a form about FCE compatibility when you were reading about professional video cameras. I also totally agree that anyone suggesting a $40,000 camera to even a semi-professional videographer is a bit inane (at least). So maybe I an calling myself nonsensical which I am at times. When on set I do get carried away with ideas and it post I get carried away in my own imagination (which helps for the finished product). Thank you once again for clarification, and don't worry, I don't take text on a screen harshly or like this:.