Could you see Apple making a dedicated camera?

[subjonas]

Since the point and shoot camera market is dead, and now that Apple has the iPhone Air which has only one camera lens, depending on how long it sticks around I think it's possible there will be a slowly growing demand for a dedicated pocketable camera (not DSLR) that is tightly integrated with the iPhone and that would be brought along on certain occasions where a better camera is desired. Sort of like how the MagSafe battery is meant to be brought along on certain occasions where a bigger battery is desired. It's kind of modularity. But besides Air users, Standard and SE iPhone users may be interested as well (and maybe Fold users?). And if Apple is able to make the dedicated camera exceptionally good, a few Pro users might want it as well.

I imagine it being a compact, pocketable camera with an iPhone Pro chip, but with a smaller screen and battery (since it's only used as a camera), and probably a larger sensor and higher zoom, and as tightly integrated with iPhone/iCloud as possible. All photos should automatically sync to the iPhone (or iCloud if it's set up). It could also act as a remote camera for selfie recording, Facetime, and other apps.

Again, I'm not talking about a big DSLR although that could be interesting too, but just a compact camera that could be slipped into a jacket pocket/small purse/fanny pack on occasions where one thinks they may need more than the single standard iPhone lens. Again, this probably wouldn't be carried with an iPhone all the time, otherwise why not get a Pro (although even if one did bring around the camera all the time and the total weight/bulk would be more than an iPhone Pro, there is still the benefit of specialization--ie. having a slim/light phone to use whenever not using the camera, and having a probably better camera than the Pro).

 

[erihp]

Since the point and shoot camera market is dead, and now that Apple has the iPhone Air which has only one camera lens, depending on how long it sticks around I think it's possible there will be a slowly growing demand for a dedicated pocketable camera (not DSLR) that is tightly integrated with the iPhone and that would be brought along on certain occasions where a better camera is desired. Sort of like how the MagSafe battery is meant to be brought along on certain occasions where a bigger battery is desired. It's kind of modularity. But besides Air users, Standard and SE iPhone users may be interested as well (and maybe Fold users?). And if Apple is able to make the dedicated camera exceptionally good, a few Pro users might want it as well.

I imagine it being a compact, pocketable camera with an iPhone Pro chip, but with a smaller screen and battery (since it's only used as a camera), and probably a larger sensor and higher zoom, and as tightly integrated with iPhone/iCloud as possible. All photos should automatically sync to the iPhone (or iCloud if it's set up). It could also act as a remote camera for selfie recording, Facetime, and other apps.

Again, I'm not talking about a big DSLR although that could be interesting too, but just a compact camera that could be slipped into a jacket pocket/small purse/fanny pack on occasions where one thinks they may need more than the single standard iPhone lens. Again, this probably wouldn't be carried with an iPhone all the time, otherwise why not get a Pro (although even if one did bring around the camera all the time and the total weight/bulk would be more than an iPhone Pro, there is still the benefit of specialization--ie. having a slim/light phone to use whenever not using the camera, and having a probably better camera than the Pro).

sure why not; remember the quicktake?

 

[subjonas]

sure why not; remember the quicktake?

I don't hahah, but yeah something like that, but hopefully better and smaller.

 

[JPack]

No, because who would buy this?

The customer would be someone who's "pro" and picky enough to be willing to carry a separate device, but not pro or picky enough to carry or use a DSLR?

This is just like the imagined customer for iPhone Air. They're obsessed with how their phone looks but not enough to care about battery life or cameras? Basically nobody falls in that category and we see the sales performance of that.

 

[erihp]

No, because who would buy this?

The customer would be someone who's "pro" and picky enough to be willing to carry a separate device, but not pro or picky enough to carry or use a DSLR?

This is just like the imagined customer for iPhone Air. They're obsessed with how their phone looks but not enough to care about battery life or cameras? Basically nobody falls in that category and we see the sales performance of that.

People bought a $150 sock for their phones. People bought (and still seek) iPods. People would buy a camera especially if it was priced right and had the right form factor (small) and had convenient/integrated features.

 

[subjonas]

No, because who would buy this?

The customer would be someone who's "pro" and picky enough to be willing to carry a separate device, but not pro or picky enough to carry or use a DSLR?

Because the smartphone market drives so much revenue, the gap in capability between DSLRs and smartphone cameras is getting smaller yearly, to the point where DSLRs are not worth it for most people and even most enthusiast photographers. Only professionals and the most hardcore enthusiasts would be willing to carry a DSLR for their diminishing returns. But I think many more people would be willing to carry a pocket size camera on occasion if it affords them significantly more flexibility than a standard single lens when they need it. And I think many people don't like how big and heavy iPhone Pros have gotten but still want the iPhone Pro camera lenses--these are the people who may be interested in a good dedicated camera. But if they use the extra lenses often then it's obvious they should just buy the Pro and suck it up regarding having a bulky phone. But the less often they use the lenses, the less attractive that proposition is and the more a dedicated camera makes sense. Those who rarely use the extra lenses have it the toughest because they either have to tolerate a thick heavy iPhone 24/7 only to use the extra lenses once in a blue moon, or they have to give up the extra lenses completely. Some of them have chosen the latter (Air), many more of them have chosen the former (Pro), but both are unsatisfied. A dedicated pocket camera could provide a possibly more satisfying option where they can be without the bulk most of the time, and bring it only when the extra lenses are needed (and in a relatively portable and convenient package compared to a DSLR). Again, if one is bringing the camera often, then they probably should stick to an iPhone Pro. It's just like the situation with the MagSafe battery--if one needs it that often with their Air then they probably chose the wrong phone.

I don't claim it would be a humongous market, but I don't think it would be nobody. As Apple's product lines have been expanding, I think it shows that they're at the point now where they're ok going for smaller more niche markets.

 

[erihp]

Because the smartphone market drives so much revenue, the gap in capability between DSLRs and smartphone cameras is getting smaller yearly, to the point where DSLRs are not worth it for most people and even most enthusiast photographers. Only professionals and the most hardcore enthusiasts would be willing to carry a DSLR for their diminishing returns. But I think many more people would be willing to carry a pocket size camera on occasion if it affords them significantly more flexibility than a standard single lens when they need it. And I think many people don't like how big and heavy iPhone Pros have gotten but still want the iPhone Pro camera lenses--these are the people who may be interested in a good dedicated camera. But if they use the extra lenses often then it's obvious they should just buy the Pro and suck it up regarding having a bulky phone. But the less often they use the lenses, the less attractive that proposition is and the more a dedicated camera makes sense. Those who rarely use the extra lenses have it the toughest because they either have to tolerate a thick heavy iPhone 24/7 only to use the extra lenses once in a blue moon, or they have to give up the extra lenses completely. Some of them have chosen the latter (Air), many more of them have chosen the former (Pro), but both are unsatisfied. A dedicated pocket camera could provide a possibly more satisfying option where they can be without the bulk most of the time, and bring it only when the extra lenses are needed (and in a relatively portable and convenient package compared to a DSLR). Again, if one is bringing the camera often, then they probably should stick to an iPhone Pro. It's just like the situation with the MagSafe battery--if one needs it that often with their Air then they probably chose the wrong phone.

I don't claim it would be a humongous market, but I don't think it would be nobody. As Apple's product lines have been expanding, I think it shows that they're at the point now where they're ok going for smaller more niche markets.

i agree, i think computational photography (ala iphone) and 'traditional' DSLR/MILC cameras are different enough that there is potential apple would bring its software-based photography features to a new camera. maybe only under license, but what what they are doing in software brings about features and techniques currently not possible on mainstream standalone digital cameras

 

[subjonas]

i agree, i think computational photography (ala iphone) and 'traditional' DSLR/MILC cameras are different enough that there is potential apple would bring its software-based photography features to a new camera. maybe only under license, but what what they are doing in software brings about features and techniques currently not possible on mainstream standalone digital cameras

Definitely the software receives credit, but I think the hardware does too. Mainly the advanced chips, but phones probably also have a leg up in the miniaturization of their camera systems. Apple could possibly license their software to camera companies if it's only software, but it might come attached to their hardware. Plus I think they would want to control the hardware design since it's so close to their wheelhouse.

 

[erihp]

Definitely the software receives credit, but I think the hardware does too. Mainly the advanced chips, but phones probably also have a leg up in the miniaturization of their camera systems. Apple could possibly license their software to camera companies if it's only software, but it might come attached to their hardware. Plus I think they would want to control the hardware design since it's so close to their wheelhouse.

yah, agree, both would be required.

And maybe even only part of the SoC would be needed, or lesser/binned varieties. I could see them squeezing efficiencies out of the chip that didnt need all to have a lot of the other logic onboard that wouldn't be required for image processing.

 

[JPack]

Because the smartphone market drives so much revenue, the gap in capability between DSLRs and smartphone cameras is getting smaller yearly, to the point where DSLRs are not worth it for most people and even most enthusiast photographers. Only professionals and the most hardcore enthusiasts would be willing to carry a DSLR for their diminishing returns. But I think many more people would be willing to carry a pocket size camera on occasion if it affords them significantly more flexibility than a standard single lens when they need it. And I think many people don't like how big and heavy iPhone Pros have gotten but still want the iPhone Pro camera lenses--these are the people who may be interested in a good dedicated camera. But if they use the extra lenses often then it's obvious they should just buy the Pro and suck it up regarding having a bulky phone. But the less often they use the lenses, the less attractive that proposition is and the more a dedicated camera makes sense. Those who rarely use the extra lenses have it the toughest because they either have to tolerate a thick heavy iPhone 24/7 only to use the extra lenses once in a blue moon, or they have to give up the extra lenses completely. Some of them have chosen the latter (Air), many more of them have chosen the former (Pro), but both are unsatisfied. A dedicated pocket camera could provide a possibly more satisfying option where they can be without the bulk most of the time, and bring it only when the extra lenses are needed (and in a relatively portable and convenient package compared to a DSLR). Again, if one is bringing the camera often, then they probably should stick to an iPhone Pro. It's just like the situation with the MagSafe battery--if one needs it that often with their Air then they probably chose the wrong phone.

I don't claim it would be a humongous market, but I don't think it would be nobody. As Apple's product lines have been expanding, I think it shows that they're at the point now where they're ok going for smaller more niche markets.

Consumers have already spoken. They're very willing to carry the thickest, heaviest, orange colored iPhone 17 Pro Max for the 0.5% chance they will use the extra rear lenses. Take a stroll in the mall and see what people are carrying. The very strong sales of the Pro Max and extremely poor sales of Air confirm that.

When I say nobody wants a compact Apple camera, I mean in the context of Apple. The entire global compact camera market is $5 to $8 billion. Assume Apple captures 100% of that market. That's less than a week's worth of revenue for Apple. Why would they bother to R&D a camera product that doesn't strengthen the ecosystem?

An Apple pocket camera would be a classic "stuck in the middle" product. Most of the guts would be identical to an iPhone with difference being the lens. Consumers still end up carrying a second device with them, but the Apple camera has substantially less photon-gathering ability compared to a mirrorless or DSLR.

No amount of computational will let a 1-inch sensor compete with APS-C. The pros in this group are also quite against ML-heavy photos, so it's not like Apple's experience in ML is a clear benefit.

 

[erihp]

Consumers have already spoken. They're very willing to carry the thickest, heaviest, orange colored iPhone 17 Pro Max for the 0.5% chance they will use the extra rear lenses. Take a stroll in the mall and see what people are carrying. The very strong sales of the Pro Max and extremely poor sales of Air confirm that.

When I say nobody wants a compact Apple camera, I mean in the context of Apple. The entire global compact camera market is $5 to $8 billion. Assume Apple captures 100% of that market. That's less than a week's worth of revenue for Apple. Why would they bother to R&D a camera product that doesn't strengthen the ecosystem?

An Apple pocket camera would be a classic "stuck in the middle" product. Most of the guts would be identical to an iPhone with difference being the lens. Consumers still end up carrying a second device with them, but the Apple camera has substantially less photon-gathering ability compared to a mirrorless or DSLR.

No amount of computational will let a 1-inch sensor compete with APS-C. The pros in this group are also quite against ML-heavy photos, so it's not like Apple's experience in ML is a clear benefit.

They could use another sensor and lenses. And there are plenty of young people buying up (at obscene prices) wacky/older cameras for fun photography. In that way I think a largely software driven experience could really serve and attract pros and non pros alike. The camera modes and profiles could be customized and easily shared producing imagery like no other standalone camera can.

Pros aren’t inherently against it, and if anything own multiple cameras for different things/tasks/styles. If Apple could innovate with the integration I could see it being a very popular product. Let’s put it this way, it’d sell better than the Vision Pro!! lol

 

[TheIntruder]

sure why not; remember the quicktake?

I almost bought a QuickTake with the accumulated rewards from my Apple Citibank Visa card.

But if there's one product category which Apple should consider reentering, it's home networking hardware like the AirPort.

I had good a experience with a previous Asus router, which lead me to buy another, but the current one is a POS, which I will take outside and pummel with a sledgehammer when it is replaced. That's how frustrating it is.

Wasn't one of the cheap models, either.

 

[macaddiict]

I had a QuickTake without a screen back in the day. It had all the fun of not getting to see your pictures like a 35mm!

I don't think modern day Apple would release a camera with another company's sensor as the "soul" ... and the lens & camera sensor aren't things Apple is able to do in house right now.

Heck, they're struggling to make Finder. Let's not give them anything else to half-do.

 

[erihp]

I almost bought a QuickTake with the accumulated rewards from my Apple Citibank Visa card.

But if there's one product category which Apple should consider reentering, it's home networking hardware like the AirPort.

I had good a experience with a previous Asus router, which lead me to buy another, but the current one is a POS, which I will take outside and pummel with a sledgehammer when it is replaced. That's how frustrating it is.

Wasn't one of the cheap models, either.

Agree. Would be nice if they rebooted network devices.

 

[TechRunner]

Since the point and shoot camera market is dead, and now that Apple has the iPhone Air which has only one camera lens, depending on how long it sticks around I think it's possible there will be a slowly growing demand for a dedicated pocketable camera (not DSLR) that is tightly integrated with the iPhone and that would be brought along on certain occasions where a better camera is desired. Sort of like how the MagSafe battery is meant to be brought along on certain occasions where a bigger battery is desired. It's kind of modularity. But besides Air users, Standard and SE iPhone users may be interested as well (and maybe Fold users?). And if Apple is able to make the dedicated camera exceptionally good, a few Pro users might want it as well.

I imagine it being a compact, pocketable camera with an iPhone Pro chip, but with a smaller screen and battery (since it's only used as a camera), and probably a larger sensor and higher zoom, and as tightly integrated with iPhone/iCloud as possible. All photos should automatically sync to the iPhone (or iCloud if it's set up). It could also act as a remote camera for selfie recording, Facetime, and other apps.

Again, I'm not talking about a big DSLR although that could be interesting too, but just a compact camera that could be slipped into a jacket pocket/small purse/fanny pack on occasions where one thinks they may need more than the single standard iPhone lens. Again, this probably wouldn't be carried with an iPhone all the time, otherwise why not get a Pro (although even if one did bring around the camera all the time and the total weight/bulk would be more than an iPhone Pro, there is still the benefit of specialization--ie. having a slim/light phone to use whenever not using the camera, and having a probably better camera than the Pro).

Are you picturing something like the Ricoh GR IV but as an Apple product? Minus the zoom requirement, that camera pretty much already exists in the GR series.

 

[subjonas]

Consumers have already spoken. They're very willing to carry the thickest, heaviest, orange colored iPhone 17 Pro Max for the 0.5% chance they will use the extra rear lenses. Take a stroll in the mall and see what people are carrying. The very strong sales of the Pro Max and extremely poor sales of Air confirm that.

When I say nobody wants a compact Apple camera, I mean in the context of Apple. The entire global compact camera market is $5 to $8 billion. Assume Apple captures 100% of that market. That's less than a week's worth of revenue for Apple. Why would they bother to R&D a camera product that doesn't strengthen the ecosystem?

An Apple pocket camera would be a classic "stuck in the middle" product. Most of the guts would be identical to an iPhone with difference being the lens. Consumers still end up carrying a second device with them, but the Apple camera has substantially less photon-gathering ability compared to a mirrorless or DSLR.

No amount of computational will let a 1-inch sensor compete with APS-C. The pros in this group are also quite against ML-heavy photos, so it's not like Apple's experience in ML is a clear benefit.

But the fact that customers have spoken sort of plays into what I'm saying. Maybe a certain number of the Pro owners felt they had to choose the Pro, because right now it's all or nothing when it comes to the extra lenses, so they chose all (Pro instead of the Air). Perhaps some of them chose the Pro reluctantly due to the size/weight, and if they were given a third option--to bring a full camera only when it suits them--perhaps they would have chosen it. As far as I know, there's no way to know how big or small of a group that is, so this is all conjecture.

But it seems like there should at least be a small group. It's kind of like portable batteries. Imagine for some reason the market for portable batteries was dead, and your phone battery is all there is (and wall/car charging on the go wasn't a reliable option either). How many more people would get the largest phone with the biggest battery just in case, even if most of the time they don't need that much battery? The option of a portable battery allows some people to get the smaller phone that better suits them most of the time, because they know they can bring a battery those infrequent times they need it. A compact dedicated camera could do the same. Many people are fine carrying portable batteries when needed--a camera would be about the same size, so they should be just as willing to carry it. But not if it's DSLR-sized. Just like almost no one would be willing to carry a battery the size of a DSLR, only extreme users would carry DSLR cameras, even occasionally. DSLRs are best and will always be, but again that gap has gotten small enough that for the increase in size (and probably cost? haven't looked at prices), DSLRs have too diminishing of returns for most people--most of whom are ok with ML photos.

The compact camera market is dead. But the premise of my post isn't that Apple should get into that dead market, it's that the market may start to resurrect in the near future if the smartphone road forks. One road would continue the path of phones getting bigger and heavier and more capable--the other road would split off into two devices that specialize but are integrated.

 

[subjonas]

Are you picturing something like the Ricoh GR IV but as an Apple product? Minus the zoom requirement, that camera pretty much already exists in the GR series.

I haven't looked into many cameras deeply and/or recently so many have slipped my mind, including the Ricoh, but I'd say zoom would be pretty critical. I did look into the Cyber Shot rx100 vii which is pretty great. But in a comparison I saw with the 17 Pro, the 17 Pro outperformed it in almost every aspect (although some aspects are subjective). So that's the thing, if a non-dedicated smartphone can be that good of a camera, then I wonder how good a dedicated camera would be if they chose to make one building off the same technologies.

But what do you mean by that camera already exists in the GR? It already has seamless integration?

 

[TechRunner]

I haven't looked into many cameras deeply and/or recently so many have slipped my mind, including the Ricoh, but I'd say zoom would be pretty critical. I did look into the Cyber Shot rx100 vii which is pretty great. But in a comparison I saw with the 17 Pro, the 17 Pro outperformed it in almost every aspect (although some aspects are subjective). So that's the thing, if a non-dedicated smartphone can be that good of a camera, then I wonder how good a dedicated camera would be if they chose to make one building off the same technologies.

But what do you mean by that camera already exists in the GR? It already has seamless integration?

No, simply that a camera like you described exists, but it would be up to Apple to build something similar (with zoom) and integrate using the GR IV as sort of a roadmap for the basics of how it's done.

 

[uacd]

I like the idea however I am quite sure GoPro will perfect it much earlier than Apple. I mean, GoPros are already good pocket cameras, but the single ultrawide camera is not ideal for some scenarios.

I think we are probably stuck to smartphones as our cameras for the next 10 years. People don’t seem to like modularity, even pros are starting to abandon their expensive camera setups and just shooting with iPhone since end consumers do not notice any difference in content quality.

If Apple makes such a camera and sells it for 400$, it would sell. At 800$ tho many people will just opt for an iPhone, even older one. Everything comes to the final cost

 

[Ctrlos]

Because the smartphone market drives so much revenue, the gap in capability between DSLRs and smartphone cameras is getting smaller yearly, to the point where DSLRs are not worth it for most people and even most enthusiast photographers. Only professionals and the most hardcore enthusiasts would be willing to carry a DSLR for their diminishing returns.

No amount of computation can replicate the laws of physics. There is still a huge gap in quality between the standard f1.8 lens on an iPhone and an equivalent on a 20-year old DSLR due to sensor size and lens quality.

There is also a huge psychological difference between taking what are essentially throwaway snaps with an iPhone and the sort of premeditation required to take out a DSLR. When you have a proper camera there is an intent behind the process: you look for photos rather than capturing things randomly.

 

[Abydos]

a simple question arises, why

 

[FreakinEurekan]

What would Apple bring to this separate camera concept, that another manufacturer couldn't? Seems to be a solution in search of a problem, IMO.

 

[ScanTheNavian]

I would like to see them working with Fujifilm to create something very unique, but I'm a bit partial with my X10. Having iPhone internals with a big optical lens(retractable) would be very sweet. As long as it's rather slim and pocketable.

 

[maflynn]

OP
you answered your own question:

Since the point and shoot camera market is dead,

What incentive is there for apple to spend R&D on a product line that is dead?

 

[Non-Euclidean]

No, no chance at all (Answer to OP).