Hi all- I've hesitated buying the current 15 rMBP due to the display issues (IR), scroll lagging, and the general sense that it would be better to wait for the next generation since more kinks will be worked out. However I've also seen comments here to the effect that the current ones are now priced significantly lower than what the Haswells of the same model will be, e.g. $300-$400 lower. Is this true? I know B. Buy is selling the current one for $1999 and I could get a hundred off that with a student discount. But is the thought that the base model r15 Haswells will be released at $2200 (the currents msrp) or more? I'd have thought that a bit counterintuitive since the Haswell Macbook Airs released for a lower price than the Ivy Bridge model. But if this bit about the lower price of the current one is true I'd be more motivated to get one now. I know this is a bit speculative, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
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Current rMBP 15 price vs. rMBP 15 Haswell price
- Thread starter J.Man
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Welcome to MacRumors. Plenty of posts speculating on prices if you do a search of the forum. There may be a modest price drop and there may not be. No one knows, but plenty of people have discussed it.
As to the issues you outlined, there's no indication of a new display in the works--it'll probably just be rolling stock like it currently is. A new model being released won't change the IR situation, which is not very common anymore. The scroll lag some people experience is pretty much unanimously considered to be software-related, so waiting for a new model won't help there, either.
As always, the best approach is just to buy a new computer when you need one for a price you think is fair. You could miss a good deal by waiting and you could miss a new model by not waiting. Half a dozen of one..
As to the issues you outlined, there's no indication of a new display in the works--it'll probably just be rolling stock like it currently is. A new model being released won't change the IR situation, which is not very common anymore. The scroll lag some people experience is pretty much unanimously considered to be software-related, so waiting for a new model won't help there, either.
As always, the best approach is just to buy a new computer when you need one for a price you think is fair. You could miss a good deal by waiting and you could miss a new model by not waiting. Half a dozen of one..
Thanks for the info, especially with respect to the scroll lag and your take on the IR situation. I definitely noticed the scroll lag on a Retina I used for a bit, especially in comparison to the cMBP which is super smooth. Have they issued software that fixes it yet?--With respect to the IR, I had in mind that the problem is in part caused by heat issues, so that a cooler running system would help secure against it (though this might not be the case).--And yeah with respect to the new prices there seem to be conflicting takes, so your advice is well taken.
The computer's cooling system doesn't do much of anything for the LCD. Image retention is a panel characteristic. By the nature of the technology, all LCD panels take some time to change state and as an engineering matter, there is an inherent conflict in designing a display with great image stability (because it helps save power and presents a persistent, even picture) with one that is extremely responsive (which means a whole bag of tricks designed to get the crystals to realign quickly).
In other words, every panel has IR--it's a symptom of a display that's working extremely well at being stable. When some of the crystals don't respond to the message to change as quickly as they are supposed to, you get "bad" IR. While heat can be a factor in exposing the weakness, it usually has more to do with the extreme precision required to balance all the electrical components.
That's why replacing the screen fixes the problem on affected computers, rather than replacing the heat-generating parts of the computer or servicing the cooling system.
In other words, every panel has IR--it's a symptom of a display that's working extremely well at being stable. When some of the crystals don't respond to the message to change as quickly as they are supposed to, you get "bad" IR. While heat can be a factor in exposing the weakness, it usually has more to do with the extreme precision required to balance all the electrical components.
That's why replacing the screen fixes the problem on affected computers, rather than replacing the heat-generating parts of the computer or servicing the cooling system.
Not everyone can post off-topic one liners and emoticons in every thread, but I can see how someone who does might consider two short paragraphs that answer a specific question to be "information overload".No mean to pun, but reading your posts it seems you suffer from IOS...
Look at the refurb MBPs at Apple's site. They are selling 2011, 2012 and 2013 models there right now. That should give you an indication. My guess is that the open box, or inventory clearing periods that best buy runs is usually your best bet as you can often reset the clock on the 1 year warranty.
Do you know the process or website where you can ask Apple if they'll reset the warranty on a Best Buy open box MBP? From my understanding, it's at the discretion of Apple and not a policy correct?
The IR issues were solved a long time ago, Apple changed the way they make the MacBook Retina displays shortly after the first release, since the refresh there has only been a few freak defects regarding IR. I have owned NINE MacBook Retinas and have only ever seen image retention on the first one I ever got.
As for the scroll lag, I've seen it once on a recent model. My theory is that it comes from "bottom of the bin" GPUs that do not perform as well as average. I overclock and benchmarked all the GPUs in all the retinas I had the the ones with scrolling lag correlated with ones that underperformed in benchmarks. If you get one with scrolling lag just return it.
Current prices are the lowest you will see so now is the time to buy. Like I said I've owned nine MacBook Retinas and I don't think you really have to worry. Just test the unit when you get it and exchange it if there are any problems.
The Haswell CPUs with Iris Pro are quite pricey. Ivy Bridge i7 in base 15" rMBP lists around $378. Haswell i7 with HD5200 is listing for $440. If they drop the dGPU the savings would be minimal (if any). I'd say that if there are price reductions, they will come from having cheaper component costs and economies of scale (PCIe SSD across the entire laptop line), cheaper retina screens, memory, etc.
@ Radiating - Thanks for your input on the both the issues and the pricing. I especially appreciate hearing the view of people here on the status of the IR issue; from reading through the long thread on the Apple Support site, you can get the impression that it's still a big problem, though I'm starting to realize it's likely that that thread doesn't give an accurate representation.
@ Aylan - Good to know!
@ Aylan - Good to know!
It has been said time and time again that the lag issue is due to software issues and for the most part is fixed in Mavericks, even though its still in beta. I've never heard of some MacBook Pro gpus performing better than others. One point which proves that this is a software issue is by using WebKit instead of Safari. All scrolling lag experienced in Safari on a rMBP is completely resolved in WebKit, which is what Safari in Mavericks will be like.
@ bobbydd21 - Good to know. I did have an open box rMBP 15 for a bit and experienced the lag not just in Safari but in Google Chrome, whereas I don't experience it at all in Google Chrome with a cMBP. Is the idea that Mavericks will somehow fix the issue on the Retinas for all the main browsing apps?
@ lianlua - I found your info on the IR causes helpful. I was in part going off an idea in the Apple Support thread on this topic that the IR was being caused by the heat being directed to the display driver chips from the graphics card and main processor. I don't have the tech knowledge though to verify the real causes.
@ lianlua - I found your info on the IR causes helpful. I was in part going off an idea in the Apple Support thread on this topic that the IR was being caused by the heat being directed to the display driver chips from the graphics card and main processor. I don't have the tech knowledge though to verify the real causes.
Sorry, I do not. I'm just recounting stories I've read here. If you search for "best buy" in the this MBP forum, you are bound to run across some stories and you could message the people individually. I'm sure they will be proud to recount their amazing deals and particulars in getting the open box MBPs warranty reset.
Good Luck.
The 2012 rMBPs are perfectly fine and should any IR issues arise, Apple will fix it. Just make sure you get AppleCare [ from B&H Photo to save some $$ ] for your new or refurb laptop.
Also, there is NO lag on Mavericks 10.9 DP 6 and everything is working perfectly...well almost except a few trivial bugs.
Also, at this point, unless you absolutely NEED to buy now, hold off. This way, you'll get to see what Haswell brings [ SSD based on PCI-Express, better battery and AC WiFi are a given .. ]
If you don't like/want to spend on Haswell, well I'm quite sure the prices on pre-Haswell model rMBPs will decline further to clear stock.
So, it's a win-win situation to wait at this point!
I'm personally VERY contended w/o compromise with my Mid 2012 rMBP on OS 10.9. It's smooth as butter, just as your experience on the classic MBPs.
Also, there is NO lag on Mavericks 10.9 DP 6 and everything is working perfectly...well almost except a few trivial bugs.
Also, at this point, unless you absolutely NEED to buy now, hold off. This way, you'll get to see what Haswell brings [ SSD based on PCI-Express, better battery and AC WiFi are a given .. ]
If you don't like/want to spend on Haswell, well I'm quite sure the prices on pre-Haswell model rMBPs will decline further to clear stock.
So, it's a win-win situation to wait at this point!
I'm personally VERY contended w/o compromise with my Mid 2012 rMBP on OS 10.9. It's smooth as butter, just as your experience on the classic MBPs.
Yes Mavericks will fix the issue on all rMBPs. Many of the improvements in Mavericks is under the hood type of stuff, including the lag many people are experiencing.
Unless you provide a serious Source (Apple), your statement sound like a speculation...
Well everyone running the Mavericks have pretty much said it fixes the lag issue...
Just out of curiosity, how many people are running Mavericks DP6?
If Mavericks fixes all kind of lags (mission control, safari,... etc) issue then it should be referenced somewhere in Mavericks install log or README file or Apple support knowledge base...
Just by doing a simple google search you can find a good amount of people who are running Mavericks DP6 who have also stated on this forum that Mavericks does fix many of the lag issues people have been experiencing.
Why would it be listed in anywhere? Apple never even claimed there was a lag problem in Mountain Lion in the first place so why would they admit to fixing it? What is stated is the many improvements to things under the hood in Mavericks, which clearly have improved the UI responsiveness and lag issue.
lol, you want Apple to admit that they have a problem with all the rMBPs they are selling at this very minute?
Not very likely.
The ONLY way you will get any info on this is by doing what these posters are suggesting.