Do TiBooks experience something similar to Staingate?

[netsrot39]

Good evening,
I have two PowerBook G4s Titanium A1025 (1 GHz) which I both rebuilt at the end of 2020 by using another donor A1025. I love them and when I acquired them both were inoperable which I fixed them with said donor. Since the rebuilt, due to lack of time, I haven't actually used them much, maybe once or twice in 2021 but earlier that particular year. Yesterday I had some tasks to do which can easily be done on a TiBook so I took one out its bag and booted it up. I noticed some stains (actually lines – 1 main line and a couple of small ones) on the screen that weren't there when I last used it. Initially I was thinking it is only dirt and I tried to wipe it off but they seem to have merged into the polarizer (as the marks can also be seen when the screen is off). Yikes! I tried different cleaning methods like glass cleaner, alcohol (very carefully of course) and dedicated TFT/LCD cleaning solutions but to no avail. I think the marks are from either the trackpad or keyboard as the marks correspond with their location. I took my second TiBook out to see if it shares the same fate and yes, kind of, although it isn't as bad, I can see a pattern here.

Even though the damage has already occured I now place a sheet of paper between the top case and the LCD in hope of preventing further marks. The marks are actually kind of annoying and I have to admit I'm kind of bummed ... I know those LCDs will soon reach the age of 20 and that nothing lasts forever so I can deal with it. Btw LTN152W5-L02 are bad screens from my experience, I have encountered so many flaws with them. I could probably fix my TiBook by changing the LCD but it most likely is a pain to separate the display assembly and I don't feel like swapping the panel since a) it will probably reoccur, b) requires to unscrew the machine and take out the logic board, c) immaculate screen replacements are hard to come by and d) time is precious. So I decided to just live with it (it is still better than vertical lines, bright spots and backlight bleeding) but yeah I'm not amused by it.

I'd like to know if I'm the only one to experience this or if this is/was a known issues with TiBooks. Also do owners of TiBooks in this forum exprience the same issue?

 

[B S Magnet]

Good evening,
I have two PowerBook G4s Titanium A1025 (1 GHz) which I both rebuilt at the end of 2020 by using another donor A1025. I love them and when I acquired them both were inoperable which I fixed them with said donor. Since the rebuilt, due to lack of time, I haven't actually used them much, maybe once or twice in 2021 but earlier that particular year. Yesterday I had some tasks to do which can easily be done on a TiBook so I took one out its bag and booted it up. I noticed some stains (actually lines – 1 main line and a couple of small ones) on the screen that weren't there when I last used it. Initially I was thinking it is only dirt and I tried to wipe it off but they seem to have merged into the polarizer (as the marks can also be seen when the screen is off). Yikes! I tried different cleaning methods like glass cleaner, alcohol (very carefully of course) and dedicated TFT/LCD cleaning solutions but to no avail. I think the marks are from either the trackpad or keyboard as the marks correspond with their location. I took my second TiBook out to see if it shares the same fate and yes, kind of, although it isn't as bad, I can see a pattern here.

View attachment 1940521

View attachment 1940523

Even though the damage has already occured I now place a sheet of paper between the top case and the LCD in hope of preventing further marks. The marks are actually kind of annoying and I have to admit I'm kind of bummed ... I know those LCDs will soon reach the age of 20 and that nothing lasts forever so I can deal with it. Btw LTN152W5-L02 are bad screens from my experience, I have encountered so many flaws with them. I could probably fix my TiBook by changing the LCD but it most likely is a pain to separate the display assembly and I don't feel like swapping the panel since a) it will probably reoccur, b) requires to unscrew the machine and take out the logic board, c) immaculate screen replacements are hard to come by and d) time is precious. So I decided to just live with it (it is still better than vertical lines, bright spots and backlight bleeding) but yeah I'm not amused by it.

I'd like to know if I'm the only one to experience this or if this is/was a known issues with TiBooks. Also do owners of TiBooks in this forum exprience the same issue?

It’s not a “staingate”.

The scuffing is what happens with any Mac laptop whose design tolerances between closed lid and keyboard — and particularly evident on models whose keyboards have sharp creases at the corners (like all iBooks and all titanium PowerBooks, but not the aluminium PowerBooks or MacBook Pros) — are tight and pressure between lid and topcase are compressed, causing slow, but incremental abrasions, typically as when stowed away in a backpack. It’s most present where the bottom of the keyboard meets the display.

I’ve had this come up with iBook G4s and my titanium PowerBook, but not with clamshell iBook G3s (since there’s a bit more space between keyboard and display when the clamshell design lid is closed, coupled with its more sturdy case/clamshell). To some extent, contact between a display and keyboard on something like an aluminium PowerBook or MacBook Pro can and does happen (often, in the form of oils from cumulative typing getting on glossy displays), but since the “lip” at the corners of keys is much softer and curved, especially so with the space bar, the prevalence of contact scratching on the anti-glare sheet is noticeably diminished.

You can remove the LCD from the display bezel and remove the anti-glare sheet using a specific wet method I use for removing them on displays like my clamshell iBook and 20-inch ACD, but that’s if you want to have a glossy display. And the same tolerances and risk for scratching exists, but it can give your LCD a second chance at an unscratched life — especially if you find some kind of thin sheet (like the paper you described, or the foam-based sheets Apple began inserting in factory-new unibody MacBook Pros) to insert when the lid is closed and the laptop is being moved.

 

[netsrot39]

Thanks for your answer.

You can remove the LCD from the display bezel and remove the anti-glare sheet using a specific wet method I use for removing them on displays like my clamshell iBook and 20-inch ACD, but that’s if you want to have a glossy display.

I think I'll try this on one of my TiBooks (the other one is hardly affected since I noted it on time). I had a look on YouTube and many people had luck with removing the anti-glare coating (on their MacBook Pros 2015-current) by using baby wipes (of course converting a matte display to a glossy display). I think I'm gonna get some baby wipes tomorrow and try again to clean the affected areas but I'd like to know what stuff you exactly used. Also I don't see a reason to take the panel out of its assembly since the wiping and cleaning can be done without any disassembly? At least I don't see the need for disassembly. Also I'd like to know if the process of converting matte to glossy can be overdone?(meaning damaging layers behind the anti glare coating)

 

[B S Magnet]

Thanks for your answer.



I think I'll try this on one of my TiBooks (the other one is hardly affected since I noted it on time). I had a look on YouTube and many people had luck with removing the anti-glare coating (on their MacBook Pros 2015-current) by using baby wipes (of course converting a matte display to a glossy display). I think I'm gonna get some baby wipes tomorrow and try again to clean the affected areas but I'd like to know what stuff you exactly used. Also I don't see a reason to take the panel out of its assembly since the wiping and cleaning can be done without any disassembly? At least I don't see the need for disassembly. Also I'd like to know if the process of converting matte to glossy can be overdone?(meaning damaging layers behind the anti glare coating)

I’ll need to go find the source I use (I bookmarked it on a computer I currently can’t access easily), but the short of it is you don’t need baby wipes, and in fact the chemicals in baby wipes may react with other components (such as the adhesive holding the anti-glare sheet to the polarizing layer). Moreover, baby wipes are not terribly biodegradable or recyclable the way a paper towel is.

What you need is a roll of paper towels, a water-sprayer bottle, and time.

You lay a single (or double, your pick) layer of paper towels completely over the LCD. (The LCD itself rests on either a bath towel or other layers of paper towels, and the layers of paper towels you lie over the LCD assembly should cover everything, including the LCD frame. You’re basically blanketing the assembly in its entirety and then some.)

Next, you use the water sprayer bottle to mist-soak the paper towel layers lying atop the LCD. (You only want water for this — no detergents or solvents.) You saturate this layer of paper towels, re-spraying every 15–20 minutes of so to counteract natural evaporation. You keep doing this for at least four hours, but you could probably go for six or even eight hours (involving more babysitting of the re-spraying/saturation process).

At the point when you’re ready to peel away the anti-glare layer, you can lift away the soaked paper towel layers. Then, use something like your fingernail to see how easily a corner of the anti-glare layer gives in coming free from the LCD polarizer below. If it’s easily doing so, then keeping pulling slowly in a steady, flowing movement, keeping your pulling end (i.e., where your thumb and fingers which are holding the corner are positioned) low and parallel with the surface of the display. If you feel the layer “jump”, it means the anti-glare layer adhesive was still not softened/wetted enough and was pulling from the layer beneath (leaving a permanent mark which mars aesthetics, but not functionality). You’ll have a choice to return it with more wetting and time, or take the risk and hope it doesn’t happen again as you continue to pull.

If all goes well, you should have the layer removed — minus any instances where the pulling of that layer “jumped”, as just described. You’ll of course want to move the LCD assembly to a dry towel surface and let it dry for at least a day (or overnight, if the humidity is really low where you are), before trying it out with power.

Lastly: although it will now be “glossy”, the display will be more vulnerable/susceptible to damage from any object which is physically harder (think Mohs scale-harder) than the now-exposed polarizing layer. Consequently, it’s less tough than, say, the glossiness of a white/black MacBook screen. For that reason, it’s why I’ve only done this with displays which have gone into a clamshell iBook and displays which won’t be transported often, such as a Cinema Display.

 

[aurora72]

On my TiBook I have the same sort of stains on display. When I first bought the TiBook, there were no visibe or noticeable stains. They must have been formed when I opened the back casing of the laptop. In order to open the back casing, the laptop is typically lied on top of its display, causing the weight of the laptop to burden on the display. And while unscrewing the 8 screws, you must press on the screwdriver and that causes the sharp curves around the keyboard to rub even harder against the vulnerable LCD display. Of course, I didn't know that such a thing would happen when I opened the back casing for the first several times. So without knowing it, I opened and closed the back casing several times, only then did I notice the stains on display and realized that I myself have caused them

They are usually more visible in the morning sunlight. Not discernible at all at night. So I got used to it in time.

After that event, whenever I needed to open the back casing, I always put a thin clean nylon between the display and the keyboard and of course I didn't apply much force while unscrewing the screws. I'm okay with it.

 

[netsrot39]

What you need is a roll of paper towels, a water-sprayer bottle, and time.

I read your instructions and they are pretty clear. Thanks!
I found a video online that shows the process of converting matte to glossy, somewhat identical with what you have described:

Before I attempt this I thought I'd try it with baby wipes but what was I thinking ... of course no dice!

I will try converting the TiBook screen from matte to glossy later this year as I do not have enough time right now. I still got a couple of questions though before I actually have a crack at this:

• How does one remove the LCD from the display assembly? I guess removing the Torx screws and afterwards sliding a plastic pick between the gap of the front bezel and back panel should release the LCD. It isn't easy to find hints online (with pictures).
• Is it necessary to unscrew the hinges? (or in other words is detaching the display assembly from the bottom case required)
• How do you prevent water from leaking inside the layers below the polarizer? I was thinking maybe some tape on the edges would help but then again the anti-glare coating cannot be fully removed or removed at all (since one has to start peeling from the edges in order to remove it)
• Do I have to remove the metal frame of the panel?

Thanks!

 

[B S Magnet]

I read your instructions and they are pretty clear. Thanks!

• How do you prevent water from leaking inside the layers below the polarizer? I was thinking maybe some tape on the edges would help but then again the anti-glare coating cannot be fully removed or removed at all (since one has to start peeling from the edges in order to remove it)

You don’t. That’s why you give the post-peel display the time it needs to dry. Water isn’t harsh on the polarizer the way other chemicals and even things like isopropyl alcohol are. You allow it the time to dry — a day or two, ideally.

• Do I have to remove the metal frame of the panel?

No.

As for the other two, specific to titanium models, I can’t say from experience, other than I know the whole LCD must come free of the titanium frame. You need the LG/Samsung/whatever unit to be a unit, separate from anything Apple added to it, suck as the titanium-related pieces (including removing it from the hinges. That procedure will probably be the most tedious, I’m guessing.

 

[Macbookprodude]

I read your instructions and they are pretty clear. Thanks!
I found a video online that shows the process of converting matte to glossy, somewhat identical with what you have described:

Before I attempt this I thought I'd try it with baby wipes but what was I thinking ... of course no dice!

I will try converting the TiBook screen from matte to glossy later this year as I do not have enough time right now. I still got a couple of questions though before I actually have a crack at this:

• How does one remove the LCD from the display assembly? I guess removing the Torx screws and afterwards sliding a plastic pick between the gap of the front bezel and back panel should release the LCD. It isn't easy to find hints online (with pictures).
• Is it necessary to unscrew the hinges? (or in other words is detaching the display assembly from the bottom case required)
• How do you prevent water from leaking inside the layers below the polarizer? I was thinking maybe some tape on the edges would help but then again the anti-glare coating cannot be fully removed or removed at all (since one has to start peeling from the edges in order to remove it)
• Do I have to remove the metal frame of the panel?

Thanks!

Dude, just leave it alone ! These are already over 20 years old and parts are getting harder and harder to find. S*** I was lucky to get new batteries for these and a brand new hi-res screen. I would just live with it.. if it works don't fix it.

 

[Macbookprodude]

You don’t. That’s why you give the post-peel display the time it needs to dry. Water isn’t harsh on the polarizer the way other chemicals and even things like isopropyl alcohol are. You allow it the time to dry — a day or two, ideally.



No.

As for the other two, specific to titanium models, I can’t say from experience, other than I know the whole LCD must come free of the titanium frame. You need the LG/Samsung/whatever unit to be a unit, separate from anything Apple added to it, suck as the titanium-related pieces (including removing it from the hinges. That procedure will probably be the most tedious, I’m guessing.

Yes, which is why I recommend OP to just leave it alone as parts are getting harder to find for 2001-2002 titanium G4 notebooks. I had a hard time getting new batteries and a replacement hi-res screen for my 1ghz.

 

[netsrot39]

Dude, just leave it alone ! These are already over 20 years old and parts are getting harder and harder to find. S*** I was lucky to get new batteries for these and a brand new hi-res screen. I would just live with it.. if it works don't fix it.

I'll try to improve it but the procedure sounds risky to me too. I actually have a couple of 15" LTN152W5-L02 (parts from aluminum PowerBooks) that have various defects (delamination, backlight bleeding and dirt behind the polarizer). They are bad panels IMO but the point is the polarizer of those is okay (the layers behind are the weak parts from my experience). So I think I will just slap the polarizer of those onto the other layers of the TiBook panels (meaning replacing the polarizer). Once the original polarizer has been removed, I'll try to convert it to glossy since there isn't a whole lot of risk involved when the layers behind the polarizer aren't there anymore. My life is pretty stressful right now so I most likely won't do this before summer and only if I have nothing better to do. I know the screen is functional but those TiBooks are collector pieces and I'd like mine to be in pristine condition (including the LCD).

I had a hard time getting new batteries and a replacement hi-res screen for my 1ghz.

LTN152W5-L02 panels aren't hard to come by at all. They are pretty much generic screens that were built-in in many PowerBooks up to the penultimate iteration. They are hard to find in pristine condition, that statement I'd second. Now that you've mentioned something about a hi-res screen I'd like to ask which model you are referring to? I wouldn't mind a higher res panel in mine at all.

 

[Macbookprodude]

The DVI 1Ghz model has a higher res screen. I believe it was the only one or maybe the 865 MHz model. I found a screen for mine because the original was messed up. Paid 150 US dollars for it.

 

[Macbookprodude]

You say you are stressful ? Do you work ? I know what you mean. I listen to meditation music when stress is getting to me. Trust me it helps !

 

[Doq]

All DVI Titaniums (667, 800, 867, 1000MHz) had the 854p panel, same as all the Aluminiums save for the HR. Pre-DVI Titaniums had the 768p panel. I don't know if they can be swapped for an 854p panel.

 

[Rikintosh]

This is because when we use the keyboard, we leave a small amount of oil that our body produces on the keyboard keys. Some people produce this oil with greater acidity, others with less acidity.

I collect notebooks, I usually leave a piece of felt between the keyboard and the screen to avoid this. This stain will not come off, you can improve it with some polishing compounds, but it is risky and laborious. Smearing can also occur on glossy screens, without the matte film, in this case, the staining will happen directly on the polarizer glued to the screen.

When removing the film, be careful not to remove the polarizing film from the screen together, if you damage it, you will have to buy a large TV film (because of the polarization angle) and even be forced to change the film on the side The opposite of the screen (sometimes the new film doesn't react well with the opposite) is laborious, time-consuming and tedious work, with a high risk of damaging the LCD.

If I were you, I would learn to live with the stain. Remember, every warrior has his scars.


When storing it, try to store it in an upright position, rather than leaving it in the position for use. This prevents you from accidentally putting something on the screen.

Get ready, in a few years, your polarizing film will "vinegar", this happens with all LCD displays from 25 years of age onwards.

 

[B S Magnet]

Get ready, in a few years, your polarizing film will "vinegar", this happens with all LCD displays from 25 years of age onwards.

The “vinegaring” you describe does happen, and even with much newer LCDs, but the phenomenon is exacerbated by storage and use in high heat, high humidity environments like Japan, Hong Kong, Brazil, Florida, and the coastal Northern Territory of Australia — places where tropical conditions are common, if not constant. When stored where humidity levels regularly exceed the recommended storage environment, chemical deterioration can and will occur.

For example, for the September 2000 iBook G3, the storage environment should maintain a relative humidity between 25 and 80 per cent of uncondensed water vapour and should not exceed 60°C.

In short, this means storage in garages or attics — common places — in humid regions, where aircon isn’t present and temperatures can easily exceed 60°C, are going to experience extreme conditions in which the presence of super-concentrated water vapour, activated by heat, will react with the chemistry of LCD layers, including the polarizer. When this happens, there’s no reversing the chemical reaction and the display will be permanently damaged, much like the “vinegaring” of nitrocellulose-based celluloid films of the early 20th century.

With climate-controlled storage, this vinegaring is not liable to happen for a very long time, if ever.