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Kaitlyn2004

macrumors regular
Original poster
Aug 17, 2008
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I have a new 14TB external drive (Seagate Expansion) (it will be backed up separately) that I will be using exclusively with my MacBook Pro.

Is there any reason to create partitions on it? Does MacOS care? Does the HFS+ filesystem care?

Partitions would end up being something like "Photos", "Videos", "Data", etc...

Basically, ANY reason to partition vs just one big partition with folders?
 
Why not APFS?

Then you can create more volumes down the road if the need occurs, and they will share the available space.

Volumes are logically partitions inside a container and the way your system drive is already formatted.

Press cmd+2 in disc utility to show all devices and see.
 
Basically, ANY reason to partition vs just one big partition with folders?
I read your other post where different folks chimed in with pros / cons regarding APFS on HDD.

APFS file system should be fine with HDD; maybe not optimal, but fine. The only reason I can think of to create multiple partitions would be to have different file system types (e.g. APFS, HFS+, exFAT, etc). There is some advantages to having HFS+ partition if you plan to transfer files to older Macs. There is some advantages to having exFAT partition if you plan to attach the drive to a Windows system to transfer files. If you plan to have one big APFS partition (i.e. container), you can create multiple volumes within the container (one for "Photos", "Videos", "Data", etc) and they will all share the one big partition space, growing in size as necessary... although not sure what advantage that would have over just having folders in one big volume in the one big container.

APFS containers and volumes explained
 
Why not APFS?

Then you can create more volumes down the road if the need occurs, and they will share the available space.

Volumes are logically partitions inside a container and the way your system drive is already formatted.

Press cmd+2 in disc utility to show all devices and see.

Everything I am reading is that APFS is not designed for spinning HDDs, and that especially as the disk fills up, performance drops more and more.
 
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I read your other post where different folks chimed in with pros / cons regarding APFS on HDD.

APFS file system should be fine with HDD; maybe not optimal, but fine. The only reason I can think of to create multiple partitions would be to have different file system types (e.g. APFS, HFS+, exFAT, etc). There is some advantages to having HFS+ partition if you plan to transfer files to older Macs. There is some advantages to having exFAT partition if you plan to attach the drive to a Windows system to transfer files. If you plan to have one big APFS partition (i.e. container), you can create multiple volumes within the container (one for "Photos", "Videos", "Data", etc) and they will all share the one big partition space, growing in size as necessary... although not sure what advantage that would have over just having folders in one big volume in the one big container.

APFS containers and volumes explained

Yeah mostly the 2nd part is the core of my question...

If I can have Storage/Photos, Storage/Videos, Storage/Data... I don't know if there is any point, any advantage to having a different partition for each of those. I do NOT foresee your example use case of. having each partition a different filesystem.

I remember way back when, I would in fact partition out for each type... but I have no idea why even back then I did it! Even in the world of symlinks, shortcuts, whatever... it actually seems easier to simply have the big drive and folders.

Which also maybe says in general, what is even the point of partitioning anymore - if not for different filesystem types on the same physical drive?
 
Everything I am reading is that APFS is not designed for spinning HDDs, and that especially as the disk fills up, performance drops more and more.

Not sure if it still works this way, but as discs fill up, with thousands and thousands of writes to them, the free space becomes fragmented, meaning when you save a file, smaller bits of it are spread around the free space on the disc. In the “old days”, you’d run software to “defragment” your disc. This would group files into larger spaces and conversely,gather together the smaller free space into larger chunks. This was better for your files and could help speed saving files a little bit.
 
Volumes work WAAAAAY better than Partitions. The problem with Partitioning is that you must decide, up front, the size of each partition - and if your needs change later then tough @!#$ because it's done.
 
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APFS is not designed for spinning disks. Performance will decrease drastically over time.
(In case someone asks why, you should let them read up on "Copy-on-write". HFS+ also has an automatic De-Fragmenter. APFS does not.)

Several HFS+ partitions are only useful if you plan on dividing your disk into "high-performance" and "low-performance" areas.
The outer ring of the disk (= the first partition) is the fastest regarding read/write speed.

A layout could be:
First partition 2TB: High-performance "scratch" disk for actual real-time work on big files. (eg. Photoshop, DAW, ...)
Second partition 10TB: Normal storage
Last partition 2TB: "Cold storage" for files that are almost never used. Or you can use it as a TimeMachine Backup partition.
 
"Partitions would end up being something like "Photos", "Videos", "Data", etc..."

This is pretty much how I do it.
2018 Mini, with internal SSD split FOUR ways:
1. MiniBoot (APFS)
2. MiniMain (HFS+) -- for most day-to-day data files
3. MiniMusic (HFS+)
4. MiniMedia (HFS+) -- for photos, videos, presentations, etc.

4 drive icons on the upper right, all the time.
Works for me. I KNOW where things are supposed to go.

I've even used "iPartition" to RE-size the partitions on-the-fly at least once.
Again, worked for me.
(that's one reason why 3 of 4 partitions are HFS+, so they are "reachable" by 3rd-party utility software)
 
Volumes work WAAAAAY better than Partitions. The problem with Partitioning is that you must decide, up front, the size of each partition - and if your needs change later then tough @!#$ because it's done.
Hmm not sure I’m familiar with the differences?

Perhaps the same root question though - if ive got my 14tb drive with a bunch of different “file types” organized by folders, is there any reason I’d pick just folders in the root, or use volumes (Photos, Video, Data, etc)?
 
BigWaff said: "The only reason I can think of to create multiple partitions would be to have different file system types (e.g. APFS, HFS+, exFAT, etc)."

So I have two HFS+ partitions (SSD) in one machine.
Data created and downloads (hopefully incl. viruses/malware) go in the empty partition
10.11 is on the OS partition.
I updated 10.11 to 10.13 and now that one is APFS.

From reading this thread, sounds like I need not be concerned that the volumes have a different file system.
 
Data created and downloads (hopefully incl. viruses/malware) go in the empty partition
If your intention is to isolate virus and malware to a partition, your strategy is flawed. While virus and malware infected files maybe downloaded to the partition, when the virus or malware executes, it will more than likely write a copy of itself elsewhere, probably on what you consider your “OS partition”. You can delete the downloaded files but you’ve already been infected and the virus/malware remains.
 
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BigWaff said: "The only reason I can think of to create multiple partitions would be to have different file system types (e.g. APFS, HFS+, exFAT, etc)."

So I have two HFS+ partitions (SSD) in one machine.
Data created and downloads (hopefully incl. viruses/malware) go in the empty partition
10.11 is on the OS partition.
I updated 10.11 to 10.13 and now that one is APFS.

From reading this thread, sounds like I need not be concerned that the volumes have a different file system.

I agree with Bigwaff that two partitions isn't buying you much security and would look for other mechanisms to protect yourself/system. While separate partitions create some isolation between different OS (good fences, make good neighbors), they don't increase isolation from a security perspective if they are all mounted at the same time anyway.

In any case, no need to be concerned about having different file systems on the same disk/device. This is fully supported.

As an example, my universal thumb drive has:
-Separate JHFS+ partitions for each macOS installer (about 4 right now)
-APFS scratch partition
-exFAT partition for compatability with non-Mac systems
-FAT32 partition for "just-in-case"
-NTFS partition for similar reasons

Similarly the internal drive of my Mac Mini 2018 has APFS partitions for macOS, a NTFS partition for Windows/Bootcamp (even if I can't remember the last time I booted it), and an exFAT partition as a staging area between them.

All works fine. All fully supported by the Disk Utility GUI.
 
Thank you! Good points about security however am not to worried about a virus etc., maybe because I have not been subject to such.
The main reason is to have user created data all in one place.

The non OS partition has user created Data folder(s) PLUS these folders:
Downloads
Documents
iTunes (media)

Aliases from those three have been put in the OS user directory, replacing the folders there.
Such means that a backup (via drag and drop) of the non OS partition means pretty much all user data gets backed up.
I have aliases of relevant Library folders in the non OS partition to remind me to copy those too.
 
Is there any reason to create partitions on it? Does MacOS care? Does the HFS+ filesystem care?

Partitions would end up being something like "Photos", "Videos", "Data", etc...

Basically, ANY reason to partition vs just one big partition with folders?
MacOS doesn't care about anything. It can certainly handle multiple partitions on a disk.

You've answered your own question really -- is there any reason to use partitions, instead of folders? What function do you want that folders wouldn't give you?
 
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Has anyone done testing on a mechanical drive of this size regarding performance with these different configurations?

Until a few months ago I had multiple mechanical HDs connected to my M1 Mac Studio and the Finder lag was horrible…and I suspected the "access" time (or "seek" or whatever it's called) of each drive was the culprit.

I'm wondering if that access delay is different for APFS vs. HFS+. Would multiple HFS+ partitions be slower than one partition? How about multiple volumes versus one on APFS?
 
Has anyone done testing on a mechanical drive of this size regarding performance with these different configurations?

Until a few months ago I had multiple mechanical HDs connected to my M1 Mac Studio and the Finder lag was horrible…and I suspected the "access" time (or "seek" or whatever it's called) of each drive was the culprit.

Were you filesystems APFS or HFS+?

Also were you running Sonoma?

I'm wondering if that access delay is different for APFS vs. HFS+.

In general HFS+ is better optimized for HDD. This includes data structures that keep data commonly accessed together close together on the disk and allocation algorithms designed to minimize fragmentation (which leads to more non-sequential access/random seeks which are orders of magnitude slower on HDD). All else being equal I would avoid APFS on HDD.

On the other hand, there have been reports that Sonoma, Finder in particular, has gotten slower with very large folders. This may be most visible with HDD.

Would multiple HFS+ partitions be slower than one partition?

If accessing one file at a time or working entirely within one folder, performance would likely be the same.

However, if one partitions an HDD into multiple partitions and then simultaneously accesses files from each partition, the HDD would have to seek to each partition to access each file. As the partitions force a certain distance between locations on the disk, it is likely this would lead to more and larger seeks than accessing the same files all on one partition. That is it would likely be slower.

It would be a unique situation that many small HFS+ partitions would be faster than one large HFS+ all else being equal.

In theory there may be a slight benefit to partition an HDD around it's "speed zones" if one didn't need all the capacity online at the same time. In general the "outer edge" (typically the beginning) of an HDD is somewhat faster than the "inner edge" (typically the ending).

So in theory, one could partition the first 2 / 14 TB for active use, the middle 10 TB for archive, and not use the last 2 TB. I/O to that 2TB active partition would focus I/O on the faster parts of the disk and reduce average seek times. Not sure how significant this would be practice and therefore worth the complexity. I would test/benchmark before committing to this.

How about multiple volumes versus one on APFS?

My guess is that creating multiple volumes in one APFS container is likely to lead to more fragmentation which is likely to get real slow in the context of an HDD. I would avoid all else being equal.
 
On the other hand, there have been reports that Sonoma, Finder in particular, has gotten slower with very large folders. This may be most visible with HDD.

Still not fixed after 2 OS versions. We are talking about very large folders with thousands of files.

Partitioning just makes things more complicated which increases the possibility of making errors when setting up backups for off-site storage, for example. I have one 112 TB volume which I use for my primary storage. If I had multiple partitions and had to change the partition sizes I would have to completely wipe it and start from scratch.
 
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Still not fixed after 2 OS versions. We are talking about very large folders with thousands of files.

Partitioning just makes things more complicated which increases the possibility of making errors when setting up backups for off-site storage, for example. I have one 112 TB volume which I use for my primary storage. If I had multiple partitions and had to change the partition sizes I would have to completely wipe it and start from scratch.

Agree, I would put using multiple disk partitions into the category of, you probably don't want to do this if you don't know why you want to do this. These days I would put using a HDD in general in the same category. There are use cases for these but they are not general use cases. Or to borrow words from the diskutil man page on a completely unrelated topic, 'You shouldn't do this unless you know precisely why you are doing so.'
 
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Is there any reason to create partitions on it?

Partitions would end up being something like "Photos", "Videos", "Data", etc...

Basically, ANY reason to partition vs just one big partition with folders?
I would say that’s been answered:
The only reason I can think of to create multiple partitions would be to have different file system types (e.g. APFS, HFS+, exFAT, etc). There is some advantages to having HFS+ partition if you plan to transfer files to older Macs. There is some advantages to having exFAT partition if you plan to attach the drive to a Windows system to transfer files.

Everything I am reading is that APFS is not designed for spinning HDDs, and that especially as the disk fills up, performance drops more and more.
Correct, although, little free space will hinder performance with any file system and even on SSDs — the threshold is tighter and more forgiving but it’s there.

APFS is not designed for spinning disks. [...]
(In case someone asks why, you should let them read up on "Copy-on-write". [...])
I still think this video is one of the best explanations:

HFS+ also has an automatic De-Fragmenter.
Yes, however, it’s quite limited.


You’ll need software such as Techtool Pro or iDefrag to do a thorough job — and, of course, time to allow the tidying up.

APFS does not.
That’s not actually true.


One last thing…

HFS+ is already a few steps into its full deprecation. In other words, it’s not a sensible moving forward option.
 
One last thing…

HFS+ is already a few steps into its full deprecation. In other words, it’s not a sensible moving forward option.

I am sure HFS+ is not Apple's highest priority these days but I doubt they will remove support for it before they (and at some point the rest of the industry) drop support for HDD. It is still for example the required filesystem for USB installers as far as I know. It has also been the default format for DMG images for a long time and I bet most of the DMG out there use HFS. It would also be somewhat ironic if they dropped support it (their own filesystem) before they drop support for FAT.

I'm not saying use it for everything but I wouldn't be scared to use it where it makes sense. When the time comes, people will have years to migrate from it and I bet any storage devices purchased today will be ready for retirement, perhaps past, when the time comes (plus Apple already has an in-place HFS->APFS filesystem converter).

As a general rule, I recommend HFS+ (Journaled) for HDD and APFS for SSD. Of course exceptions apply.
 
That’s not actually true.
You are correct.
But the feature is badly documented and - as Howard Oakley himself wrote - quite useless on spinning disks. So I chose to simplify my answer a bit to give out advice that is helpful to OP without overly complicating things.
I apologize.
But I still stand by my original advice: HFS+ for spinning disks, APFS for SSDs.
 
But I still stand by my original advice: HFS+ for spinning disks, APFS for SSDs.
As a general rule, I recommend HFS+ (Journaled) for HDD and APFS for SSD. Of course exceptions apply.
That’s fine. Nonetheless, I’ll elaborate a bit more to perhaps bring a little more clarity to my own reasoning.

• macOS Catalina pushed — some would use the word “forced” — boot drives to use APFS.
• Big Sur brought APFS to Time Machine drives. And if I recall correctly, it also automatically converted err (re)formatted newly chosen drives (e.g., if they were formatted HFS+) as APFS. It was certainly part of the APFS-HFS+ debate as most people were/are still using HDD for backups and APFS started out very rough, including but not limited to critical problems on Fusion Drives. Therefore, many wanted to maintain using HFS+ for TM, but Apple seemingly decided it was okay by the time Big Sur dropped.
I never paid close attention though, I assume, Big Sur is also when Disk Images went APFS. I can tell you with certainty DMGs are now default APFS.
• As noted in a different thread, Disk Utility — at least in the GUI — no longer provides the option for encrypted HFS+ formatting. I also point out Disk Utility stumbles — well, I said “grumpy” — when handling HFS+ Encrypted drives/volumes.
• Performance… Well.. Actually, the stars align...
Has anyone done testing on a mechanical drive of this size regarding performance with these different configurations?
Several HFS+ partitions are only useful if you plan on dividing your disk into "high-performance" and "low-performance" areas.
The outer ring of the disk (= the first partition) is the fastest regarding read/write speed.

A layout could be:
First partition 2TB: High-performance "scratch" disk for actual real-time work on big files. (eg. Photoshop, DAW, ...)
Second partition 10TB: Normal storage
Last partition 2TB: "Cold storage" for files that are almost never used. Or you can use it as a TimeMachine Backup partition.
Someone did an APFS vs. HFS+ test using that very method.


A snippet:
However, when the order of partitioning and testing was reversed on one of the hard disks, that also reversed the advantage in transfer rates:

  • APFS write rate fell from 148 to 116 MB/s, HFS+ rose from 116 to 148 MB/s.
  • APFS read rate fell from 149 to 124 MB/s, HFS+ rose from 118 to 149 MB/s.
That demonstrates that the differences seen between HFS+ and APFS on hard disks was the result of the physical location of the partitions on the hard disk platter, rather than anything inherent in the file systems themselves.
 
The only "test" I was really wondering about was the Finder lag when opening windows or the open/save windows in applications. Which causes less lag: a large capacity mechanical drive with multiple partitions formatted HFS+ or an APFS formatted one with the same number of multiple volumes?

File transfer speed wasn't a problem for me…slow is slow no matter which format.

For me it makes no difference as I don't constantly run any mechanical drives anymore. I still have some mechanical HDs I use for backup but they're not turned on for regular use.
 
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