Feature Film Lost footage

[colossus34]

Ok I need some help, BADLY. Our feature film was shot on HD-CAM tapes, unfortunetly we lost about 20% of the footage(long story). Now we are using the PAL-DVD backups to insert in the missing shots. The highres footage is PRO-RES HQ my question is what is the BEST QUALITY format to export the dvd's into Final Cut Pro to cut in with the high res shots from the Pal dvds.

The DVD's look decent quality when I play them on a dvd player but I tried exporting the .VOB files as regular .mov files but it seems like they get compressed.

Please, help. Thank you!

 

[LimeiBook86]

I believe if you are to rip the disc's VOB files they are the same quality as they are on the disc. Unless the program you have is compressing them, if so disable that. What program are you using to rip the .VOB files from your disc?

If you are watching the DVD video on a TV (especially an older CRT monitor) the video may look crisper due to the low-resolution of the set. Also when you are playing back the footage on a modern computer's screen (depending on a few factors of course) you may need to de-interlace the video.

I'm not an expert on these things, I'm just giving you a bit of info that I've gathered while dealing with NTSC video systems, so my advice may only be semi-accurate.

Best of luck!

 

[colossus34]

Thank you, I agree on the tv resolution issue, you may be correct on that. However, on the files I simply copied the .vob files from the DVD, is it possible to cut/edit vob files instead of having to convert them to .mov for finalcut and intercut with PRO-Res HQ footage? Also, what do you mean by de-interlace the video? Thanks for the input!

 

[Blipp]

I can't think of a single way you can attack this without the difference between shots being glaringly obvious.

 

[colossus34]

I can't think of a single way you can attack this without the difference between shots being glaringly obvious.

Ouch really? I mean the film will finish on DVD anyways? Do you think it will not match with good color correction? I know it will not blow up on a big screen.....

 

[LethalWolfe]

The DVD footage is never, ever going to match the HDCAM footage. If you are *only* making an SD output of the film you could create an SD timeline and put both your HD and SD footage in there. The difference won't be as obvious if you are only working in an SD timeline but it will still be there. DVD compression can be pretty brutal. How much footage did you cram onto each DVD?


Lethal

 

[colossus34]

The DVD footage is never, ever going to match the HDCAM footage. If you are *only* making an SD output of the film you could create an SD timeline and put both your HD and SD footage in there. The difference won't be as obvious if you are only working in an SD timeline but it will still be there. DVD compression can be pretty brutal. How much footage did you cram onto each DVD?


Lethal

Thank you for your input! The DVD's are about 4gb each around 1 hour of footage on each DVD. I know the footage will never match, but this move will most likely be released simply on VOD/DVD so besides being mastered on to HDCAM I think it won't look at glarring when its all compressed into a final SD output? Or am I being naive?? Whats the best way to export the data from the DVD to a finalcut pro editable footage without losing ANY data as you you can imagine at this stage we dont want ANY LOSS of info?

 

[alph45]

Ouch really? I mean the film will finish on DVD anyways? Do you think it will not match with good color correction? I know it will not blow up on a big screen.....

your results should be obvious when you compare match shots. mpeg2 is highly compressed. Color correction is a generic step regardless of source, it's the compression that will get you. But yes, for "non theatrical" release, you can get away with a lot more, how much is the question. If your doing a highly stylized post it will be easier to hide the difference, but if the look is neutral the difference should stand out. There is always the option of dumbing down the other footage to match the DVD footage as well, far from ideal of course.

we've had a few "backup" threads and this is an object lesson. if you had copied your original footage to DVD rather than burning a mpeg2 dvd you'd be golden.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Thank you for your input! The DVD's are about 4gb each around 1 hour of footage on each DVD. I know the footage will never match, but this move will most likely be released simply on VOD/DVD so besides being mastered on to HDCAM I think it won't look at glarring when its all compressed into a final SD output? Or am I being naive?? Whats the best way to export the data from the DVD to a finalcut pro editable footage without losing ANY data as you you can imagine at this stage we dont want ANY LOSS of info?

Whether or not it looks glaring depends on the footage and how it's used in the movie. Bringing it in as ProRes 422 (or LT if drive space is a concern) is as good as anything else.


Lethal

 

[colossus34]

Whether or not it looks glaring depends on the footage and how it's used in the movie. Bringing it in as ProRes 422 (or LT if drive space is a concern) is as good as anything else.


Lethal

Agreed, how do I go about to bring it in as ProRes 422? Software to use to go from VOB files to Prores HQ 422? Drive space IS NOT a concern.

 

[mBox]

Recapture

Ive had better luck recapturing from DVD straight into Avid using Digital video feeds. VOBs tend to look bleh for us here.

 

[mBox]

Agreed, how do I go about to bring it in as ProRes 422? Software to use to go from VOB files to Prores HQ 422? Drive space IS NOT a concern.

I think MPEG StreamClip might help partly.

 

[smokescreen76]

I really would be interested to know how you "lost" your HDCAM masters.

I would use Mpeg Streamclip to rip the VOB files on the DVDs into 1920x1080 ProRes (HQ) with Downscaling turned on (I am going on guesswork here but I figure that the downscale algorithms also work for upscaling).

In Final Cut you may have to experiment with a number of filters to reduce any artifacts brought in from the Mpeg 2 compression - I would recommend looking into Neat Video.

 

[colossus34]

Ive had better luck recapturing from DVD straight into Avid using Digital video feeds. VOBs tend to look bleh for us here.

Can you explain how this is done? So basically bypass tranferring the files and feed into avid/final cut pro via another device?

I really would be interested to know how you "lost" your HDCAM masters.

I would use Mpeg Streamclip to rip the VOB files on the DVDs into 1920x1080 ProRes (HQ) with Downscaling turned on (I am going on guesswork here but I figure that the downscale algorithms also work for upscaling).

In Final Cut you may have to experiment with a number of filters to reduce any artifacts brought in from the Mpeg 2 compression - I would recommend looking into Neat Video.

ahhh I could write a book on how that question, the perils of indie filmmaking with no money/shooting in multiple countries(china, usa, transferring from hard drive to HDCAM, working with vendors in 3rd world countries etc).....

Thank you for the input sir but can you explain downscaling?

 

[mBox]

Can you explain how this is done? So basically bypass tranferring the files and feed into avid/final cut pro via another device...

Yes using a device from DVD to capture card within your Mac. There are service depots that will do this for you but could be costly.
Ive been out of the loop with recent tech.
Currently use Blackmagic Analog to SDI converter into Avid Nitris DX.
In the old days we use to dump VHS into any miniDV camcorder then ingest into Final Cut using DV format.
In your case you will have to uprez the files to HD within your NLE.

 

[LethalWolfe]

What frame rate is your HDCAM footage and what frame rate are your DVDs? If they aren't the same (ex. you shot HDCAM 23.976psf but your DVDs are 50i) then this process just got more complicated (and your DVD is worse off than I originally thought).

I think using ProRes 422 is a better option than HQ. HQ will only get you bigger files and longer processing time but the actual image won't be any different than regular ProRes. I don't think it will be any different than ProRes LT but I haven't done this sort of a test between LT and regular so I can't say that 100%.


Lethal

 

[WestSt]

What frame rate is your HDCAM footage and what frame rate are your DVDs? If they aren't the same (ex. you shot HDCAM 23.976psf but your DVDs are 50i) then this process just got more complicated (and your DVD is worse off than I originally thought).

I think using ProRes 422 is a better option than HQ. HQ will only get you bigger files and longer processing time but the actual image won't be any different than regular ProRes. I don't think it will be any different than ProRes LT but I haven't done this sort of a test between LT and regular so I can't say that 100%.


Lethal

Following Lethals comment, establish if the framerates are the same for both the DVD and CAM clips. If they are you're in luck - check ba in and I'll give my "best practice" recipe using MPEG Streamclip (initially based on A LOT og trial and error). Or do you also have av access to Compressor?

 

[colossus34]

Following Lethals comment, establish if the framerates are the same for both the DVD and CAM clips. If they are you're in luck - check ba in and I'll give my "best practice" recipe using MPEG Streamclip (initially based on A LOT og trial and error). Or do you also have av access to Compressor?

Can you detail your 'best practice' specs? The PAL footage on DVD is 25fps so it does complicate matters. What do you think of this workflow?

1)Use Mpeg StreamClip to convert VOB files to PRORes HQ 4:2:2 at 25fps

2)Use Compressor program to covert footage to 24fps.

3)Import into Final Cut and cut in with other 24fps HD footage..

4)Use Virtual dub to smooth out any glarring visual issues and artifacts.

5)Output to HDCAM-SR and make DVD's from that for distribution.

Thank you for your feedback. Greatly appreciated sir.

 

[WestSt]

Can you detail your 'best practice' specs? The PAL footage on DVD is 25fps so it does complicate matters. What do you think of this workflow?

1)Use Mpeg StreamClip to convert VOB files to PRORes HQ 4:2:2 at 25fps

2)Use Compressor program to covert footage to 24fps.

3)Import into Final Cut and cut in with other 24fps HD footage..

4)Use Virtual dub to smooth out any glarring visual issues and artifacts.

5)Output to HDCAM-SR and make DVD's from that for distribution.

Thank you for your feedback. Greatly appreciated sir.

Well, seeing this it seems you pretty much have it down. I'm assuming you are somewhat more familiar with the tools then I reckoned. Just two things: you won't need to use both Streamclip and Compressor - do both framerates and codec/container in one export (try both tools and see what output looks best). And HQ is overkill - as you know you WILL lose quality, and using HQ won't help - all you gain is increased file side.

 

[KeithPratt]

How did the footage get onto DVD? Be really specific. Your aim should be to reverse the steps. You're probably along the right lines with the above workflow.

 

[colossus34]

Well, seeing this it seems you pretty much have it down. I'm assuming you are somewhat more familiar with the tools then I reckoned. Just two things: you won't need to use both Streamclip and Compressor - do both framerates and codec/container in one export (try both tools and see what output looks best). And HQ is overkill - as you know you WILL lose quality, and using HQ won't help - all you gain is increased file side.

Not that familiar actually, but are you sure about nixing the Compressor step? Would streamclip be able to turn the 25 to 24 fps seamlessly? I've also been told the "Teranex VC100" is another way to go and is the better option but much more pricey. Take the Pro Res HQ footage to a vendor and convert it through that to 24fps to match rest of footage.

Also, HQ is what we are editing rest of footage on in Finalcut pro. I think it would be better to have only HQ footage in the timeline instead of trying to mix in another format when we go out to HDCAM for final master. Am I right here?

How did the footage get onto DVD? Be really specific. Your aim should be to reverse the steps. You're probably along the right lines with the above workflow.

I wish I could tell you but I'm not 100% sure on how the footage was out onto DVD by the vendors in China. I'm assuming HDCAM downconverted to PAL DVD's, at this point it can't be traced.

 

[WestSt]

Not that familiar actually, but are you sure about nixing the Compressor step? Would streamclip be able to turn the 25 to 24 fps seamlessly?

Also, HQ is what we are editing rest of footage on in Finalcut pro. I think it would be better to have only HQ footage in the timeline instead of trying to mix in another format when we go out to HDCAM for final master. Am I right here?

Yes and yes...

Streamclip let's you type in the fps you want. Do an export with both Streamclip and Compressor and see which one handles the job best. Actually, I've found Streamclip to produce a better result more often when exporting mpeg2's (feels like it's handling the colors better).

It's always the safest route to have the exact same codec properties on all your clips in a sequence - you're right about that! However, I don't think it'll matter in your case (or generally as long as it's Prores something).

A general tip when working with digital files as your source, is that when you export to ingest in to your NLE, keep your codec, format, and clip properties as close as possible to your final output (but of course still something your NLE handles well). Simply because: number of conversions x alterations with each conversion = how much you mess up your fotage.

 

[KeithPratt]

I wish I could tell you but I'm not 100% sure on how the footage was out onto DVD by the vendors in China. I'm assuming HDCAM downconverted to PAL DVD's, at this point it can't be traced.

You can't find out? Ring or e-mail somebody?

If it was 24p played out fast to 50i, you'd capture 50i and slow down by 4.096% in Cinema Tools. You'll need to slow down your audio by the same amount, and might need to pitch it down by the same amount.