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Future 4K support

G

gcnet22

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jan 9, 2012
18
2
so i am going to start off by saying I didn't see this topic recently.

Being that the ATV4 has superior specs than a 2015 Fire TV, do you see Apple providing us with a future update for 4k support? Yes, it only has HDMI 1.4, but so does the FireTV. The A8 is more than capable of 4k.

Thoughts?
 
It's probably not going to happen at least until Apple starts storing 4K content on their servers first. When they do, 4K will be an ATV5-only feature, because what else would you expect from Apple?
 
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Not likely. I expect Apples 4K backend to rely on h265, and there the AppleTV4 is not going to cope properly.

I expect the Apple TV 5 to get support for 4K, h265, better audio support (DTS, maybe even HD audio), HDMI 2.0 (2.1?), A10/11/12, and of course iTunes Store 4K content. All in all, a good upgrade where everything would make sense, and still position the Apple TV4 as a cheaper buy (99$ for the 32GB version) for 1080p TVs.
 
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4K is saved for the :apple:TV5... probably coming out with or soon after iPads inherit the iPhone's 4K cameras. 1080p for the "3" was held back and then rolled out when iPads inherited that generation of iPhone's 1080p cameras.

If one is hoping for THIS :apple:TV to get 4K via some kind of software upgrade, I'll hope right with you... but my expectations of that are near zero. Just as there was a "introducing :apple:TV3, now with 1080p", there is very likely to be "introducing :apple:TV5, now with 4K" to come.
 
T'hain Esh Kelch said:
Not likely. I expect Apples 4K backend to rely on h265, and there the AppleTV4 is not going to cope properly.

I expect the Apple TV 5 to get support for 4K, h265, better audio support (DTS, maybe even HD audio), HDMI 2.0 (2.1?), A10/11/12, and of course iTunes Store 4K content. All in all, a good upgrade where everything would make sense, and still position the Apple TV4 as a cheaper buy (99$ for the 32GB version) for 1080p TVs.
Click to expand...

Apple TV is perfectly capable of outputting dts, trueHD and DTS-MA via PCM. Infuse does this currently.
 
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And so we wait. I guess I'll keep using my nVidia Shield console on my 4k TV for now. I guess the chances of Apple pushing a 4k update on the ATV4 is along the same line of Apple joining the UV platform. Lol.
 
andrewstirling said:
Apple TV is perfectly capable of outputting dts, trueHD and DTS-MA via PCM. Infuse does this currently.
Click to expand...
Of course, by I am here talking about Apples own decoding implementation, and not some third party solution build from the ground. It doesn't make sense for every single developer to reinvent the wheel.
 
HDMI 1.4 supports 4K, so I would have to say it's just down to whats available and how many have 4K at the moment. Only going on the basis you have 4K recording on iPhoneSE and iPhone 6S/iPhone 6SPlus

For me, i'll never get 4K... No need for it....

4K would be best on the big screen, so this further proof Apple would implement it. No one will Airplay content to a 4K display only.
 
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Unlikely. I know it has been suggested a software update could "unlock" this feature but the fact is the A8 found inside the Apple TV would never deliver an acceptable experience.

The Apple TVs A8 is likely very similar to that found inside the iPhone 6/6 Plus. This holds the answer to this question. The iPhone 6 Plus's 1080p display causes performance to lag behind that of the iPhone 6. When it comes to pushing pixels the A8 found inside iPhone 6 Plus was about 20 slower than the iPhone 5s in synthetic tests.

If you apply that to the Apple tv that currently pushes 2.1 million pixels. A 4K TV's 8.3 million pixels would likely cause the current A8 to grind to a halt. It's possible an Apple TV 4th gen could drive the display but offering little in the way of interactivity, let alone play games. Sure it's possible Apple could have done a custom job on the GPU found inside the Apple Tv A8. Or just used a more powerful variations on the A9/x but that's not what we got. Apple has a history of optimizing product performance to the lowest common denominator (at a set price point.)

Currently only about 15% of homes in NA and less in western Europe have a 4k TV. these numbers are set to rise fast approaching 40 - 50% by the year 2020. Just in time for apple to relate a new variant of the Apple TV.
 
T'hain Esh Kelch said:
Not likely. I expect Apples 4K backend to rely on h265, and there the AppleTV4 is not going to cope properly.

I expect the Apple TV 5 to get support for 4K, h265, better audio support (DTS, maybe even HD audio), HDMI 2.0 (2.1?), A10/11/12, and of course iTunes Store 4K content. All in all, a good upgrade where everything would make sense, and still position the Apple TV4 as a cheaper buy (99$ for the 32GB version) for 1080p TVs.
Click to expand...

ATV4 plays h265 just fine. It may have been part of a recent update, but my h265 files stream "Direct Play" (not transcoded into h264) from Plex to ATV4.
 
StPatty33 said:
ATV4 plays h265 just fine. It may have been part of a recent update, but my h265 files stream "Direct Play" (not transcoded into h264) from Plex to ATV4.
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How do you know it does that? First, on Plex aTV UI, there is nowhere to see if it transcodes or not.
Main question, though, is if you are playing back 1080p or 4K movie in H.265?
My first attempt to throw a 4k H.265 clip at Plex shows that it is playing back transcoding it to H.264:
Screen Shot 2016-07-22 at 10.47.06.PNG
EDIT: Still, mine shows that it is also transcoding a 720p HEVC/H.265 clip to H.264, so I honestly do not understand how could you achieve H.265 native playback on your aTV 4.
 
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priitv8 said:
How do you know it does that? First, on Plex aTV UI, there is nowhere to see if it transcodes or not.
Main question, though, is if you are playing back 1080p or 4K movie in H.265?
My first attempt to throw a 4k H.265 clip at Plex shows that it is playing back transcoding it to H.264:
View attachment 641296
EDIT: Still, mine shows that it is also transcoding a 720p HEVC/H.265 clip to H.264, so I honestly do not understand how could you achieve H.265 native playback on your aTV 4.
Click to expand...

I read his post and I was/am skeptical as well (not saying they are lying just I find it kind of difficult to believe) but for the life of me I can't think of another way of testing this that is full proof. I even went to the trouble of grabbing and making a couple h265 encoded files for testing...

I don't use Plex but on the server side is there an option for "Direct Play" as mentioned? According to Plex that should be the native file.

Have any ideas? The problem is if it plays we need to know whether its transcoding or not and if it doesn't play we need to know its not a bug in the software or another issue.
 
Probably a feature held back for the next Apple TV. Maybe they will just hold off for 8k.
 
andrewstirling said:
Apple TV is perfectly capable of outputting dts, trueHD and DTS-MA via PCM. Infuse does this currently.
Click to expand...

trueHD and DTS-MA audio formats were originally built for disc-based distribution; they're way too bandwidth-intensive for streaming media. You can pretty much expect Apple to continue with Dolby Digital Plus for the foreseeable future.
 
JeffPerrin said:
trueHD and DTS-MA audio formats were originally built for disc-based distribution; they're way too bandwidth-intensive for streaming media. You can pretty much expect Apple to continue with Dolby Digital Plus for the foreseeable future.
Click to expand...
Dolby Digital is do for streaming (transcoding), but having the ability for DTS (HD) pass-thru for direct play should be a standard feature.
 
simon lefisch said:
Dolby Digital is do for streaming (transcoding), but having the ability for DTS (HD) pass-thru for direct play should be a standard feature.
Click to expand...

Not really. There is not a high demand for it. Apple doesn't go after the pros. Just the lowest common denominator.
 
Vermifuge said:
Apple doesn't go after the pros. Just the lowest common denominator.
Click to expand...
And that's the problem. There are plenty of other boxes that have that option as a standard feature. Believe me, there are plenty of people who want that option.
 
simon lefisch said:
And that's the problem. There are plenty of other boxes that have that option as a standard feature. Believe me, there are plenty of people who want that option.
Click to expand...

The Apple TV is designed to appeal to the 99% customer base. Most of which use tv speakers and even if they do have an AVR can't really hear the difference between DD+ and DTS-HD. People demanding high end output should probably find a different system to meet their needs. The 4K capability falls under this same motivations. when "enough" people have 4k TVs apple will probably support it. Right now it would just lead to upsetting customers that probably have data caps and overage fees. Just look what happened with apples "WiFi Assist"

"plenty of people" isn't enough. needs to be a majority for apple to bother. Personally i prefer the DD because my Sonos system doesn't support the DD+ / DTS signals.
 
simon lefisch said:
And that's the problem. There are plenty of other boxes that have that option as a standard feature. Believe me, there are plenty of people who want that option.
Click to expand...

DD Passthrough, yes... passthrough of DTS-MA or trueHD, no. As I said earlier, lossless audio requires far too much bandwidth for streaming media. And Dolby effectively acknowledges the limitations of streaming lossless audio by pushing DD+ as their product solution for streaming.

The upside is that with DD+, the audio codec is supossedly improved AND there is the possibility for providing much higher bitrates than the old DD format.
 
Tech198 said:
HDMI 1.4 supports 4K, so I would have to say it's just down to whats available and how many have 4K at the moment. Only going on the basis you have 4K recording on iPhoneSE and iPhone 6S/iPhone 6SPlus

For me, i'll never get 4K... No need for it....

4K would be best on the big screen, so this further proof Apple would implement it. No one will Airplay content to a 4K display only.
Click to expand...

The iPad Pro 9.7 does 4k video recording
 
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