G3 B&W won't quite post

[mcdermd]

So, I've bought a B&W 350 and had it shipped to me. It was working fine when it left but when it got to me, it won't quite boot. Both LEDs DS7 & DS8 are on. It gets a Bong, I see the CPU request LED (DS9) flash a few times, but then it will not init the video on the primary PCI bus and it won't continue onto the secondary either (no USB init).

Things I've done:
- Reseat all cards, RAM, processor
- Stripped out everything except one stick of good RAM and the Rage 128
- Reset CUDA
- Reset Mainboard
- Test battery (it was good @ 3.6v)
- Replaced battery
(I've done most of those multiple times)

I cannot reset PRAM or boot to open firmware because it doesn't get to the point of initializing the USB ports.

All in all, I'm thinking the Rage 128 just picked an inopportune time to die. Does that sound plausible? Would a bad video card cause the symptom I'm seeing? Anyone have any more tips?

 

[rickvanr]

I thinkn B&W's are just dying now... I've been having huge problems with mine. Do you have an old ADB keyboard laying around? You could try that, or start up the computer via the network, if you have another computer. Or try a new graphics card if you know someone with a mac that could lend you one? perhaps put the rage 128 in a different pci slot?

 

[mcdermd]

Oh, yeah. I forgot to say that I also tried the Rage 128 in a different PCI slot. Still no dice.

I'm hoping that a different Video card will work and it's not a Logic Board problem with the primary PCI bus.

UPDATE: The Rage 128 works fine in my dual 500 G4. So, it's not the vid card. Should I try swapping procs next? Or should the proc be fine if I get a "Bong"? Maybe the PCI bridge is fried?

 

[rickvanr]

good to know the card isn't bad, bad to know the pci could be...

I couldn't really tell you a next step, but I'm sure someone here will know. Also, is it a Rev A or B?

 

[mcdermd]

It's Rev B.

I also just noticed that the secondary ATA cable has found it's self a hole caused by the hinge. Think that could have messed anything up? I tried putting a new cable in on it, but nothing good from that either.

I'm getting discouraged as it sounds like the logic board may just be hosed.

 

[rickvanr]

I would hope your computer isn't that badly broken.

have you tried booting via a network from your daul g4?

 

[mcdermd]

How would I do that without any response from the USB keyboard?

It's not getting to the point where it can boot. It's hanging in post. I think it's either with the PCI init or the ATA/IDE init.

Oddly enough, the power button the USB keyboard works!

 

[rickvanr]

good point, and no ADB keyboard or mouse to check that...

hmm, I make a non-educated guess it probably is the logic board or something related to it then...

 

[rocktaff]

I've got the same problem...

Spooky... I've got almost exactly the same problem as you (bought a B&W G3, saw it working, and now it won't boot - with symptoms practically identical to yours). Although I've had this machine for about six months now, I gave up on it in disgust a while ago and left it to gather dust, but I just came back to give it another go earlier this week. I've spent the last couple of days, on and off, trying to get it to boot.

I _can_ occasionally get my G3 past the stage yours fails at - but to do so, I have to unplug the power lead, remove the clock battery and leave the machine to sit for A FEW HOURS (overnight is usually good) before reconnecting everything and trying again. Doing this will often get the video to light up, at which point the Mac goes looking for its OS (which isn't currently installed on this machine's HDD, so it stops there); LEDs DS4 and DS5 (the USB bus indicators) also illuminate at this point. Have you tried something similar yourself? It really DOES have to be several hours - the ten minutes Apple quotes in the service manual just doesn't seem to hit the spot.

Something else I noticed was that the J25 jumper block (which sets the processor speed) on my B&W had clearly been tampered with by a previous owner - it's supposed to have a 'Do Not Remove' dire warning sticker stuck over it, but that has gone - and it's evident from cosmetic damage to the plastic jumper cover that someone has prised the block off in the past (although internal inspection reveals that all the jumpers in the block seem to be set perfectly correctly for my B&W, which is a 400MHz model). You could at least look to see whether the jumpers are set correctly in your machine - you should have a blue jumper block for a 350MHz machine, I believe (mine is white). Apple's service manual for the B&W tells you what the correct settings should be (pp130-2); do you have a copy?

As a result of the above, I'm currently mulling over the possibility that the processor module has been in some way damaged, and wondering whether to attempt pulling the 300MHz ZIF card out of my working Beige G3, resetting the J25 jumper block in the B&W to the 300MHz setting and sticking in the Beige card for test purposes - they're pin-compatible with each other, after all, and I know that many of the third-party ZIF upgrade cards you can buy for the B&W also work in the Beige. Anyone out there care to enlighten me/speculate wildly as to whether this would/wouldn't be a good idea?

Chris.

 

[mcdermd]

Well, I've just tested about everything I can test. I've slotted a G3 266 from a Beige in (after changing the bus speed to 66mhz and the multiplier to 4) and I get the same thing. I've tried a different video card (even though I knew the Rage was good). Still no go. Tried using an ADB mouse. Different RAM. Different PCI slots. Nothing new.

What I'm left with is thinking that the hole in the IDE cable to the CD-ROM drive was caused by the hinge on the door and when powered on in this way caused a lucky short that may have fried the IDE channel which does not allow the logic board to complete it's pre-boot state. Plausible?

In other words - time for a new logic board. I just don't know what else is left.

 

[Mord]

What I'm left with is thinking that the hole in the IDE cable to the CD-ROM drive was caused by the hinge on the door and when powered on in this way caused a lucky short that may have fried the IDE channel which does not allow the logic board to complete it's pre-boot state. Plausible?

In other words - time for a new logic board. I just don't know what else is left.

that hole is ment to be there, every b&w owner i know has blamed problems on it.

i'm haveing issues with a friends b&w at the moment it wont even bong, the light go's on and thats it

 

[mcdermd]

that hole is ment to be there, every b&w owner i know has blamed problems on it.

Damn - I was just about to post this. The hole is for the unused IDE pin.

Well, back to the diagnostic free-for-all.

Thanks!

EDIT: More notes:
- LEDs DS1 (ATA) and DS6 (Ultra ATA) never light. I've checked the cables and drives. They work well in other machines.

- At boot I get DS7, DS8 (Power) and DS9 (CPU Request) all lighting up. Then DS9 goes out, I get the "Bong", DS9 flickers a couple of times, then nothing. I'm assuming that DS1(ATA), DS4 & DS5 (USB 1&2) and DS6 (Ultra ATA) should also be lighting as the boot sequence goes on, but they're not.

EDIT 2:
Addition to LED states: IF I set both drives to Cable Select and plug them into the first IDE connector, both DS1 (ATA) and DS6 (Ultra ATA) light solid for ~30 seconds then go out. Nothing else. This only works if I have it set to cable or slave and have them on the first IDE connector on the ribbon. Weird?

 

[mcdermd]

Just an update for anyone that may reference this thread in the future. I ended up buying a used Rev 2 logic board for my B&W. I combined it with all the other parts from the old board. It did the trick and everything works well now. I think the problem with the old one was something in the PCI brigde that would not allow the ATA controller to come up anymore.

I'd like to thank the Low End Mac swap list for proving a great used parts marketplace.

Thanks for all the help in diagnosing this problem!