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Floris

macrumors 68020
Original poster
Sep 7, 2007
2,385
1,490
Netherlands
Apple macOS High Sierra Accessability - Zoom - Min and Max magnification removed.png



Hi, I have albinism, and it sucks, .. I get daily headaches, I have nystagmus, small fonts are hard to read, etc. And that's why I love osx/macOS, because they come with amazingly displayed fonts in various resolutions that are easy on the eyes, with great features to increase them while not becoming blurry. You can on the retina iMac even change to higher and lower resolutions and it's as if it's the native resolution.

And in every previous version of macOS the Zoom accessibility feature had Rapid Zoom, and while Zoom is still in High Sierra, the rapid zoom has been removed. Why? No idea, .. i have been in talks with Apple for a few days now, engineers (according to them) are looking into it but so far they have a hard time even understanding that I am talking about high sierra not having the thing in the red as shown above.. they keep thinking that i can't turn on/off the zoom, or that it doesn't zoom in.. sigh.

It DOES work, it DOES zoom in, but the minimum and maximum levels you can set as a preference has been removed, and THAT is the problem, it's the most important feature of the zoom ..

And this isn't an opinion, of that it should or shouldn't be there, we're not talking about a font being shown differently or a color we don't agree on.. this is accessibility. To give a stupid example: You could always push a wheelchair, but now they decided to remove those handles, so you can't get support pushing it .. and they keep asking: but you can still sit in the chair, right?..

Before, you could set levels. So when you cmd/option/+ to zoom in, you would jump right to that level, be it 7 or 20.. whatever the number is.

Now, in high sierra, that's removed, you have to press cmd/option+ as many time as your required zoom in level is. And yep, it's not a matter of 'i want level 7 or 8', it's a 'i need it, .. to literally see'.

So imagine you have to go to level 12 each time just because that's the right one for your eyes, you press cmd/opt/+ ONCE, and you're there.. and in High Sierra, you have to do: cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+ ...

And before, you could press the - and it would zoom out all the way, now it's forced to 1x steps as well, so you have to basically do it another 12 times.

This slows down usability a lot, this makes you change feeling a bit more like a normal person using the computer to constantly getting reminded that you are not, and you have to take another break just to zoom in and out, .. wasting time, interrupting workflow, building up irritation.

I asked them a few things: is this the case, is it really removed, maybe it's hidden somewhere else, or i can still enable it with a terminal command. their response is: can you take another screenshot for me? .. again, not realising it's literally not there, i mean, there are only so many ways i can explain to their tech and support what has been removed. Another question is: if it is removed, will it be back, is this a bug, oversight? And maybe.. why has it been removed, because for the love of steve jobs i can't even imagine one single reason why you would add discomfort to those who need this feature every 5 minutes, every time they use the system. No reply either, they're still trying to understand that the rapid zoom is what i am talking about.

They are relaying again to the engineers what the problem is, hopefully they figure it out this time, .. and call me back tomorrow, .. this guy tonight told me he'd schedule a call for tomorrow, but the case number shows no info, no call ~ it appears it's simply been closed. So we will see.

If they are so oblivion about this feature, then i dont understand they sat down and discussed the benefits of removing it

It's frustrating, it's literally affecting how i use my system daily. And sure, i can get over myself and get used to this compromise and just deal with pressing the + 7x and - 7x multiple times every 5 minutes instead of just once. But imagine someone with worse eyes than me that also invested loads of money into a machine that can do this stuff or them, only to find out the update removed it.. who might need to zoom in 25 times.. that's 50x key presses every time they need to focus on something important on the screen.

I do not understand how i had to spend nearly an hour at midnight talking to someone from the disability department (who was very nice btw) to try and explain that it wasn't there. Eventually it seems she got it, and said: huh, i didn't even know it was removed..

Screen Shot 2017-09-25 at 23.32.07.png


Because of my visual disability it took me two years to save up for a modern system that i use to socialize, watch my media on in a way i have control over it, do my hobbies in resolutions that i can work with, etc. And I am broke now after spending the 3600 euro (4250 dollar) and was happy i had a system that would get me another 10 years of awesome apple experience.. only to find out the day i upgrade to high sierra that most important feature for me (and i can only imagine any visually impaired person that uses the zoom more than 2 levels) kinda turned this system into a regret.. and the argument "why not stay on sierra" is kinda stupid, i didn't spend 3600 euro to get a new tech machine to keep it on sierra the next eight to ten years.

end of rant, .. i mean, sharing of personal frustration with high sierra, which other 99% is really awesome. But while i can change the font or a color .. i can't change removed features or my eyes.
 
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This move is really terrible, bizarre and uncharacteristic for Apple, but you've done the right things in contacting them. I'd send emails to Tim Cook and Craig Federighi as well. They do respond to certain important issues, which this certainly is. The only explanation I can think of that would be even remotely understandable is that the feature produced bugs with Metal 2, so they disabled it til they could fix it. (ArsTechnica reported Metal 2 UI glitches). Not an excuse though.

And you might think it's "stupid," but in the meantime, I would go back to Sierra. Keep complaining to Apple, but what's the point of using an OS that's harder to use, especially when there are so few user-facing features?

Anyway, keep us updated on your Apple contact.
 
I don't know why they changed this, but is the default zoom level not enough? How much/less zoom do you need from the control-option shortcut?
 
I still have no idea why they changed it. But in the mean time, there are several alternative actions you can try to use.
1. Enable the option to use the scroll gesture to zoom. eg. hold control and use scrolling to zoom in and out (thats what I use sometimes)
2. Set your preferred zoom level and toggle between full zoom and no zoom. Use the keyboard shortcut to zoom in as much as you need (cmd-opt-+). When it's at the level you want, you can use Toggle Zoom (command-option-8) to zoom all the way out, or all the way back in to that exact same level. You can also set the option of holding control-option to toggle zoom to make this even faster.
 
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This move is really terrible, bizarre and uncharacteristic for Apple, but you've done the right things in contacting them. I'd send emails to Tim Cook and Craig Federighi as well. They do respond to certain important issues, which this certainly is. The only explanation I can think of that would be even remotely understandable is that the feature produced bugs with Metal 2, so they disabled it til they could fix it. (ArsTechnica reported Metal 2 UI glitches). Not an excuse though.

And you might think it's "stupid," but in the meantime, I would go back to Sierra. Keep complaining to Apple, but what's the point of using an OS that's harder to use, especially when there are so few user-facing features?

Anyway, keep us updated on your Apple contact.

I appreciate your feedback, and I will try to not poke the bear and go through the normal methods of contacting them first. I have spoken to someone that used to work with Apple who has given me some unofficial advice as well, which I will take as a second step, and if nothing happens I will gather some information and together with Accessibility groups I will try to send a friendly letter online/offline to the big guys.


I don't know why they changed this, but is the default zoom level not enough? How much/less zoom do you need from the control-option shortcut?

This isn't just about me, thankfully with glasses on I can see about 25% of say normal 100% .. I might only need level 3 at times, and level 7 at other times, depending on the app (Hello any creative app with font size 8>10). I know enough people in my life with worse eye sight and they use over 12 to 25 on their current systems. No, level 1x step zoom in or even 2x isn't enough, otherwise this wouldn't even be an issue.

Reread the post...seventh paragraph. It's not nearly enough.

I know, it's a lot of text, I understand not everybody is interested in reading it all. But yep, it's not nearly enough indeed.

I still have no idea why they changed it. But in the mean time, there are several alternative actions you can try to use.
1. Enable the option to use the scroll gesture to zoom. eg. hold control and use scrolling to zoom in and out (thats what I use sometimes)
2. Set your preferred zoom level and toggle between full zoom and no zoom. Use the keyboard shortcut to zoom in as much as you need (cmd-opt-+). When it's at the level you want, you can use Toggle Zoom (command-option-8) to zoom all the way out, or all the way back in to that exact same level. You can also set the option of holding control-option to toggle zoom to make this even faster.

You've already told me more than the Apple engineer have, I think a temporary solution is indeed to force zoom in to the desired level and use the toggle option (8) to use in/out, but it's not perfect. You lost the control and it's not predictable (part of having bad eyes is simply knowing this key combo does that.. it's why using the scroll or pinch to zoom etc isn't comfortable, because you lose predictability (which is an issue for some, not for others).

I really appreciate the feedback, and using the toggle to stick to previous zoom is getting closest to what it was before.


[EDIT]
>> Does it remember the preference of toggle trick?
/sleep/ > wake up > Yes
/lock/ > unlock > Yes
/log-out/ > [x] restore windows? > log in > Yes
/log-out/ > [ ] restore windows (no) > log in > No . (strange, only one where it doesn't for me)
/restart/ > [x] restore windows? > restart > Yes
/restart/ > [ ] restore windows (no) > restart > (surprisingly yes)
/shutdown/ > [x] restore windows? > start up > Yes
/shutdown/ > [ ] restore windows (no) > start up > (surprisingly yes)

After a bunch of testing (doing everything two or three times), I am glad to also notice that it remembers the toggle on almost all log out, sleep, restart etc situations - and with or without restoring windows preference that it asks for. That's actually pretty darn good news.

I will definitely talk about this with the Apple engineer if he calls me back.

It doesn't 'solve' the matter, but it's a nice temporary and usable patch.
 
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Does anybody here have any experience with editing plist files from the command line?
I think I found the file that stores the values for the rapid zoom stuff .. so i can start comparing it against sierra's plist files, and see if i can play with some values. Can I just use xcode cli tools or do I need something special?

(removing the video in a day or something.. btw, and yes, the screen recorder was unable to record the actual zooming properly, but you get the point)

 
Does anybody here have any experience with editing plist files from the command line?
I think I found the file that stores the values for the rapid zoom stuff .. so i can start comparing it against sierra's plist files, and see if i can play with some values. Can I just use xcode cli tools or do I need something special?


Don't know about the command line, but in the past I've just used TextEdit to edit plist files. Worked just fine. Or you can use Xcode.

That looks promising!
 
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to read/check

Code:
defaults read com.apple.universalaccess closeViewDesiredZoomFactor


to change

Code:
defaults write com.apple.universalaccess closeViewDesiredZoomFactor 5
 
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to read/check

Code:
defaults read com.apple.universalaccess closeViewDesiredZoomFactor


to change

Code:
defaults write com.apple.universalaccess closeViewDesiredZoomFactor 5

You're almost there.. :) I have been doing some tests, just making sure it's working on various systems.
 
Don't know about the command line, but in the past I've just used TextEdit to edit plist files. Worked just fine. Or you can use Xcode.

That looks promising!
Yeah, I've figured quite a few things out in the last few hours.


By the way everybody who replied so far, I really appreciate it that you all contributed to the conversation. Thank you.
 
They didn't call back on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday.
The guy simply said the things he was trained for: what the customer wants to hear.
Make a promise the engineers will get your info and they call you back.
Doesn't schedule the actual call, doesn't actually call back. Case has no further options to add new info or schedule a new call for it. He probably closed it.

Quite disappointing.
 
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They didn't call back on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday.
The guy simply said the things he was trained for: what the customer wants to hear.
Make a promise the engineers will get your info and they call you back.
Doesn't schedule the actual call, doesn't actually call back. Case has no further options to add new info or schedule a new call for it. He probably closed it.

Quite disappointing.

Time to email Tim Cook and Craig Federighi if you haven’t already.
 
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Time to email Tim Cook and Craig Federighi if you haven’t already.

Since they didn't give me any facts, not even to confirm they indeed removed it or consider the toggle on/off trick to be the way to do it, or actually answered any question .. it kinda feels like it's an option yes.

But whatever, .. another disappointing experience with their support. It really feels that they're not taking it seriously.

Imagine having accessibility hardware for your visual handicap that uses a headphone jack, there are no accessibility devices with lightning cables. And now this. As if wasn't enough already after taking the bank account first. Support pretending to be there for you but after hours of talking still haven't even answered the simplest of two questions (because they are trained probably to never confirm anything negative they've done)

Yeah, it's been a fantastic Microsoft experience.
 
View attachment 721446


Hi, I have albinism, and it sucks, .. I get daily headaches, I have nystagmus, small fonts are hard to read, etc. And that's why I love osx/macOS, because they come with amazingly displayed fonts in various resolutions that are easy on the eyes, with great features to increase them while not becoming blurry. You can on the retina iMac even change to higher and lower resolutions and it's as if it's the native resolution.

And in every previous version of macOS the Zoom accessibility feature had Rapid Zoom, and while Zoom is still in High Sierra, the rapid zoom has been removed. Why? No idea, .. i have been in talks with Apple for a few days now, engineers (according to them) are looking into it but so far they have a hard time even understanding that I am talking about high sierra not having the thing in the red as shown above.. they keep thinking that i can't turn on/off the zoom, or that it doesn't zoom in.. sigh.

It DOES work, it DOES zoom in, but the minimum and maximum levels you can set as a preference has been removed, and THAT is the problem, it's the most important feature of the zoom ..

And this isn't an opinion, of that it should or shouldn't be there, we're not talking about a font being shown differently or a color we don't agree on.. this is accessibility. To give a stupid example: You could always push a wheelchair, but now they decided to remove those handles, so you can't get support pushing it .. and they keep asking: but you can still sit in the chair, right?..

Before, you could set levels. So when you cmd/option/+ to zoom in, you would jump right to that level, be it 7 or 20.. whatever the number is.

Now, in high sierra, that's removed, you have to press cmd/option+ as many time as your required zoom in level is. And yep, it's not a matter of 'i want level 7 or 8', it's a 'i need it, .. to literally see'.

So imagine you have to go to level 12 each time just because that's the right one for your eyes, you press cmd/opt/+ ONCE, and you're there.. and in High Sierra, you have to do: cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+, cmd/opt/+ ...

And before, you could press the - and it would zoom out all the way, now it's forced to 1x steps as well, so you have to basically do it another 12 times.

This slows down usability a lot, this makes you change feeling a bit more like a normal person using the computer to constantly getting reminded that you are not, and you have to take another break just to zoom in and out, .. wasting time, interrupting workflow, building up irritation.

I asked them a few things: is this the case, is it really removed, maybe it's hidden somewhere else, or i can still enable it with a terminal command. their response is: can you take another screenshot for me? .. again, not realising it's literally not there, i mean, there are only so many ways i can explain to their tech and support what has been removed. Another question is: if it is removed, will it be back, is this a bug, oversight? And maybe.. why has it been removed, because for the love of steve jobs i can't even imagine one single reason why you would add discomfort to those who need this feature every 5 minutes, every time they use the system. No reply either, they're still trying to understand that the rapid zoom is what i am talking about.

They are relaying again to the engineers what the problem is, hopefully they figure it out this time, .. and call me back tomorrow, .. this guy tonight told me he'd schedule a call for tomorrow, but the case number shows no info, no call ~ it appears it's simply been closed. So we will see.

If they are so oblivion about this feature, then i dont understand they sat down and discussed the benefits of removing it

It's frustrating, it's literally affecting how i use my system daily. And sure, i can get over myself and get used to this compromise and just deal with pressing the + 7x and - 7x multiple times every 5 minutes instead of just once. But imagine someone with worse eyes than me that also invested loads of money into a machine that can do this stuff or them, only to find out the update removed it.. who might need to zoom in 25 times.. that's 50x key presses every time they need to focus on something important on the screen.

I do not understand how i had to spend nearly an hour at midnight talking to someone from the disability department (who was very nice btw) to try and explain that it wasn't there. Eventually it seems she got it, and said: huh, i didn't even know it was removed..

View attachment 721448

Because of my visual disability it took me two years to save up for a modern system that i use to socialize, watch my media on in a way i have control over it, do my hobbies in resolutions that i can work with, etc. And I am broke now after spending the 3600 euro (4250 dollar) and was happy i had a system that would get me another 10 years of awesome apple experience.. only to find out the day i upgrade to high sierra that most important feature for me (and i can only imagine any visually impaired person that uses the zoom more than 2 levels) kinda turned this system into a regret.. and the argument "why not stay on sierra" is kinda stupid, i didn't spend 3600 euro to get a new tech machine to keep it on sierra the next eight to ten years.

end of rant, .. i mean, sharing of personal frustration with high sierra, which other 99% is really awesome. But while i can change the font or a color .. i can't change removed features or my eyes.
[doublepost=1506987532][/doublepost]You are right! I'm also a Zoom user since 2004 - to use a computer I need the Zoom almost 99% of the times but I also need to rapidly see the screen in a normal size and back rapidly to the magnify size. I missed a lot this important feature. Without it I need to press 5 or 6 times the key combinations to magnify the screen and the key combination to un-magnify the screen. So, 12 times key press either 2 rapid press to do the same. I hope that Apple put again in the macOS this important feature to people with low vision.
 
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The open source solution from Apple doesn't seem to be the way to go, it's more about the kernel and less about the windowmanager, which seems to be where accessibility's zoom feature is handled (?)
It's now wednesday, still no call back, I think it's fair to say that they probably closed the case and made some bs promise that an engineer would call back. They're not going to follow up, it's up to me to tell the same story 10x again to support ppl that just forward it to yet another person, until they make another promise of some engineer calling back ..

I guess we will escalate this ourselves, outside of Apple's policy on how to deal with user feedback.
 
[doublepost=1507406805][/doublepost]Hey @Floris, I think I found a bit of a compromise to mimic this function to an extent again.

Try this:

1. Turn on Zoom using a modifier key.

2. Select Full Screen under Zoom style.

3. Zoom in using your selected modifier key to the extent you would set as Maximum Zoom (around 2x in your screenshot in your first post).

4. Zoom back out using ( Option Command - )

5. Now if you zoom in using the keyboard shortcut ( Option Command 8 ), High Sierra remembers your 'maximum zoom' preference in step 3 above.


The compromise here is that every time you use the modifier key to zoom to a different level, High Sierra would set it as the new maximum zoom level, so I'd disable it if I wasn't using it. Good thing here is that macOS remembers your maximum zoom preference even after a system restart.

I know how frustrating this was for you (and for me too) and I know first hand how incompetent AppleCare is most times. But I hope this helps you? Let me know :)



kTJLdM9.jpg
 
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Have you tried holding various combinatioms of Cmd, Control, and Option while clicking on the Zoom pane opening button? In recent years, Apple has taken to hiding things behind oprtion keys, without tellingh their customers.
You might not, but you might get lucky.
If they took out these controls, someone had to do some work to do so. Sometimes it's easier to just leave the old code in, and make a new dialog box without the controls. The old dialog box may still be in there, hidden behind some key combination.
 
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[doublepost=1507406805][/doublepost]Hey @Floris, I think I found a bit of a compromise to mimic this function to an extent again.

Try this:

1. Turn on Zoom using a modifier key.

2. Select Full Screen under Zoom style.

3. Zoom in using your selected modifier key to the extent you would set as Maximum Zoom (around 2x in your screenshot in your first post).

4. Zoom back out using ( Option Command - )

5. Now if you zoom in using the keyboard shortcut ( Option Command 8 ), High Sierra remembers your 'maximum zoom' preference in step 3 above.


The compromise here is that every time you use the modifier key to zoom to a different level, High Sierra would set it as the new maximum zoom level, so I'd disable it if I wasn't using it. Good thing here is that macOS remembers your maximum zoom preference even after a system restart.

I know how frustrating this was for you (and for me too) and I know first hand how incompetent AppleCare is most times. But I hope this helps you? Let me know :)



kTJLdM9.jpg


Thank you - glad to hear you're not the only one finding this alternative somewhat useful. In practice (having used it for a while now) it's just not convenient, and doesn't always work. The pinky against keyboard and fingers on the +/- means I don't have to break my work flow, finding the 8 visually on the keyboard to turn it on off, finding out the zoom level isn't correct, because the last time you reset it by accident or it was too high or too low.. it's just frustrating.

We discussed this earlier in this post here: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ure-removed-rapid-zoom.2072754/#post-25133593

Your solution is what i've had to use in the meantime.
[doublepost=1507550984][/doublepost]
Have you tried holding various combinatioms of Cmd, Control, and Option while clicking on the Zoom pane opening button? In recent years, Apple has taken to hiding things behind oprtion keys, without tellingh their customers.
You might not, but you might get lucky.
If they took out these controls, someone had to do some work to do so. Sometimes it's easier to just leave the old code in, and make a new dialog box without the controls. The old dialog box may still be in there, hidden behind some key combination.
I've asked their support, live chat, advisor, engineer, etc.. and since they refuse to answer, and refuse to call back now.. I haven't had an official response. Testing myself: no results yet.
 
Thank you - glad to hear you're not the only one finding this alternative somewhat useful. In practice (having used it for a while now) it's just not convenient, and doesn't always work. The pinky against keyboard and fingers on the +/- means I don't have to break my work flow, finding the 8 visually on the keyboard to turn it on off, finding out the zoom level isn't correct, because the last time you reset it by accident or it was too high or too low.. it's just frustrating.

We discussed this earlier in this post here: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ure-removed-rapid-zoom.2072754/#post-25133593

Your solution is what i've had to use in the meantime.

I use BetterTouchTool to remap complicated key combinations to simpler ones. For instance I use a Magic Mouse 2 and have double tap with 2 fingers set to zoom in / out, if this helps.
 
I use BetterTouchTool to remap complicated key combinations to simpler ones. For instance I use a Magic Mouse 2 and have double tap with 2 fingers set to zoom in / out, if this helps.
And would this support the high sierra situation (you personally have this experience) that you can program it to be 12x in, toggle on, etc.. ?

This is the official site? https://www.boastr.net/
 
Never mind, seems their app doesn't support it in high sierra.

Unless he misunderstood me or something.
Screen Shot 2017-10-10 at 23.41.03.png
 
Floris: I've got a temporary eye problem and am on a small screen; a 13" MBP...so, in looking how to zoom screen...I did actually see how to get the the area (the min/max) you are writing about. (IDK if it was put back in place due to your discussion here, or if the feature was merely hard to find, as so many are!).

Forgive me if I've misunderstood your post...or if anyone else solved, tl;dr, but I will tell you how I got there, just in case. :) (Meaning, although I do actually have other disability issues, I have not had experience with Accessibility's Zoom features before. My main experience would be when I'm zooming a website or pdf, etc, through trackpad gestures, wherein I do the thumb/2nd finger pinch. What a name!)

From Accessibility Pref > Choose Zoom (left pane)
Then on right, pane, the last option I see is a dropdown box.
At the dropdown box, choose "Full Screen."
Just to the right of that dropdown is an "Options" button. Click on that.

When I do that process, this is what I see (Min, Max Slider Bars):
(more info after img, btw)

For Floris.png
Then, the toggles I found are:
Zoom in: Command/Option/Equals Sign.
Zoom out: Command/Option/Minus Sign.
Rapid Zoom Toggle: Control ^ and Option together.

I sincerely hope that is a help to you. I'm an advocate for self and others, so, I know what a pain in the butt things can be!


MBP 13" Refurb Mid 2017
OS X High Sierra10.13.2
 
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Hey there,

Thank you for taking the time to update the thread, I really appreciate it - and welcome to the macrumours community.

Yes, the effort we've put in through various ways have paid off, the "old" feature is 'back' in 10.13.2.
I've been successfully using it on a beta after a chat with someone who really really really wishes to remain anonymous. And it's in the last couple of stable builds.

I can't believe it worked.. and that it's back.
 
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