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NorCalBear

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Dec 2, 2024
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I have a ~2005 17" PowerBook G4 1.67 Ghz DLSD/HR Al model, and I want to upgrade it as far as possible, for use as a hot rodded retro system with maximum capability. What are my options?

  • CPU: I've seen on YouTube from DosDude1 that it is theoretically possible to upgrade the PPC 7447a CPU to a 7448 model, but that requires not only finding 7448 chips, but also a steady hand and extensive soldering ability, neither of which I really have. According to benchmarks, he achieved a bit more than a 10% CPU benchmark improvement, and I read that they run cooler as well. I commented on his YouTube video, but until and unless he gets back to me, that's a pie in the sky dream of an upgrade. If someone has a way to contact him, please let me know!
  • Cooling: The Honeywell PTM7950 thermal pads look pretty nice for thermal contact performance improvement. Anyone know how they compare with some Thermal Grizzly paste?
  • Cooling 2: Are cooling fan replacements/upgrades an option? If so, which ones?
  • SSD: I know that the system uses the IDE interface, which I think maxes out at 100 MB/s, if memory serves. What's the recommended smallest IDE to M.2 adapter to use, and are there any restrictions on the M.2 drives that I choose to use, such as not fitting a 2280 drive, or any other gotchas? I did see a wiki entry on this, but there were no clear call out that any were specifically incompatible or especially recommended. I have an existing M.2 2280 drive that's not being used for anything right now that I'd like to put to good use.
  • Wi-Fi, bluetooth, and optical: Are there any available upgrades?
  • RAM: I know that the system uses DDR2/533 memory, up to 2x1 GB modules. What's the minimum as far as memory timings? Any gotchas there I should know about?
  • Display: Are there any upgrade options that use better technology (OLED?) or brighter backlights or higher resolutions/etc?
  • Speakers: Any upgrade options?
The planned software load-out would be a triple boot between Sorbet Leopard 1.5 with AquaFox (the most modern Mac OS and web browser I'm aware of for PPC), Fienix Linux, and OS 9.2.2, if possible. I know the latter is unsupported as hell, but I've seen on OS9Lives that it might be possible, with some broken stuff. If 9.2.2 is ultimately not possible, then the third option would be a copy of Leopard 10.4.11.
 
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As someone who also has a 17" DLSD, allow me some insight:

= CPU: I bid you good luck in finding these 7448s and also having it installed. I personally don't find the effort worth it-- the stock 1.67 is plenty fast for me.
= Cooling: I am Arctic for life so I have no knowledge on Thermal Grizzly paste. Pads are a good option as long as they conduct well enough and are the correct spacing.
= Cooling 2: If there are, it's probably either OEM parts or some hackjobbing needed.
= SSD: Some adapters are able to accept a 2280, but all adapters only accept SATA M.2 drives. You're not gonna be able to put an NVMe drive in one of these adapters.
= Wi-Fi, bluetooth, and optical: Find yourself a WPC600N PC Card. It'll work in Leopard and appear as a standard Airport card.
= Display: 1920x1200 panels from MacBooks will likely work, see thread https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/the-wuxga-powerbook-g4-17.2335705/

Also, you will never ever get OS 9.2.2 to run let alone run well. Unlike previous PBG4s which still used ADB-based keyboard and touchpad, the DLSDs have USB-based keyboard and touchpad, so you'll lose keyboard and touchpad. Sleep won't be functional. Sound won't be functional. You definitely won't get Airport. Video support is missing. Firewire is partial. In short, nothing will work. Hardware is too new.

Also.... Leopard 10.4.11? :p
 
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I have a ~2005 17" PowerBook G4 1.67 Ghz DLSD/HR Al model, and I want to upgrade it as far as possible, for use as a hot rodded retro system with maximum capability. What are my options?

  • CPU: I've seen on YouTube from DosDude1 that it is theoretically possible to upgrade the PPC 7447a CPU to a 7448 model, but that requires not only finding 7448 chips, but also a steady hand and extensive soldering ability, neither of which I really have. According to benchmarks, he achieved a bit more than a 10% CPU benchmark improvement, and I read that they run cooler as well. I commented on his YouTube video, but until and unless he gets back to me, that's a pie in the sky dream of an upgrade. If someone has a way to contact him, please let me know!
  • Cooling: The Honeywell PTM7950 thermal pads look pretty nice for thermal contact performance improvement. Anyone know how they compare with some Thermal Grizzly paste?
  • Cooling 2: Are cooling fan replacements/upgrades an option? If so, which ones?
  • SSD: I know that the system uses the IDE interface, which I think maxes out at 100 MB/s, if memory serves. What's the recommended smallest IDE to M.2 adapter to use, and are there any restrictions on the M.2 drives that I choose to use, such as not fitting a 2280 drive, or any other gotchas? I did see a wiki entry on this, but there were no clear call out that any were specifically incompatible or especially recommended. I have an existing M.2 2280 drive that's not being used for anything right now that I'd like to put to good use.
  • Wi-Fi, bluetooth, and optical: Are there any available upgrades?
  • RAM: I know that the system uses DDR2/533 memory, up to 2x1 GB modules. What's the minimum as far as memory timings? Any gotchas there I should know about?
  • Display: Are there any upgrade options that use better technology (OLED?) or brighter backlights or higher resolutions/etc?
  • Speakers: Any upgrade options?
The planned software load-out would be a triple boot between Sorbet Leopard 1.5 with AquaFox (the most modern Mac OS and web browser I'm aware of for PPC), Fienix Linux, and OS 9.2.2, if possible. I know the latter is unsupported as hell, but I've seen on OS9Lives that it might be possible, with some broken stuff. If 9.2.2 is ultimately not possible, then the third option would be a copy of Leopard 10.4.11.
Sounds like everything you want to do is well beyond what the average person thinks about/is capable of doing. That's okay, but given that it's 18 years past the Intel transition you are highly unlikely to find any products that may have been for sale, for sale now. There's no money in it.

Not really sure what you're going for here, other than the satisfaction of being the bestest, most tricked out Mac PowerPC laptop amongst…MacBook Pros? I say this as a PowerPC fan, but your Mac's best performance would be subpar for later models of Mac laptop. So, there must be some other reason you're wanting to do this (aside from any accolades).

Finally, as @Doq mentioned, Leopard 10.4.11????!

Leopard is 10.5. 10.5.8 is the last version of Leopard. You're already planning to run Sorbet Leopard which bills itself as 10.5.9 (unofficially).

Tiger, the OS before Leopard was 10.4, with 10.4.11 being the last version released. Is Tiger actually what you meant?
 
Sounds like everything you want to do is well beyond what the average person thinks about/is capable of doing. That's okay, but given that it's 18 years past the Intel transition you are highly unlikely to find any products that may have been for sale, for sale now. There's no money in it.

Not really sure what you're going for here, other than the satisfaction of being the bestest, most tricked out Mac PowerPC laptop amongst…MacBook Pros? I say this as a PowerPC fan, but your Mac's best performance would be subpar for later models of Mac laptop. So, there must be some other reason you're wanting to do this (aside from any accolades).

Finally, as @Doq mentioned, Leopard 10.4.11????!

Leopard is 10.5. 10.5.8 is the last version of Leopard. You're already planning to run Sorbet Leopard which bills itself as 10.5.9 (unofficially).

Tiger, the OS before Leopard was 10.4, with 10.4.11 being the last version released. Is Tiger actually what you meant?

The average person isn't really into retro computing either, being far more into the latest and greatest stuff. For me, while modern stuff is great, retro stuff holds a special appeal. While some may want to preserve their retro tech in stock form, I want my gear to be upgraded to be the best that it can be, to levels that people of the day could only have dreamed of.

I'm aware of my Leopard/Tiger confusion, as the first reply did point out.
 
The average person isn't really into retro computing either, being far more into the latest and greatest stuff. For me, while modern stuff is great, retro stuff holds a special appeal. While some may want to preserve their retro tech in stock form, I want my gear to be upgraded to be the best that it can be, to levels that people of the day could only have dreamed of.
I totally understand that, and having done this myself with a Quicksilver, I wish you the best of success.

My own experience did not end up being everything I thought it would be.
 
Sounds like everything you want to do is well beyond what the average person thinks about/is capable of doing. That's okay, but given that it's 18 years past the Intel transition you are highly unlikely to find any products that may have been for sale, for sale now. There's no money in it.

Not really sure what you're going for here, other than the satisfaction of being the bestest, most tricked out Mac PowerPC laptop amongst…MacBook Pros? I say this as a PowerPC fan, but your Mac's best performance would be subpar for later models of Mac laptop. So, there must be some other reason you're wanting to do this (aside from any accolades).

I wouldn't compare any of this with any "MacBook" or any other Intel/AMD/ARM-based junk with all of its associated hardware-level spyware and backdoors. It is completely within reason to seek to beef up your reliable PowerPC-based hardware if you are going to daily-drive it.

7448 processors, and 7457 for that matter, are not unicorns even to this day, although locating them does trip up a lot of people, because it does take investigating things very patiently to locate them, or devices to desolder them from, or to buy them brand new (are they still manufactured? Back in 2021-ish I know they were).

We don't have a dependency or reliance on "products that are/were for sale" as long as we can get just the processor. We discussed this thoroughly over many years here, and went through great detail about it. We even have a fellow member here from Slovakia, @JoyBed, who does these upgrades, and does it with a discount if we ship to him also the processor. At least that was the case some years back. (I hope @JoyBed is doing well today, regardless of whether or not these services are still available.)

Anyway... With all that out of the way, and with all this being said, I do agree that even as a daily-driver, the DLSD's 7447(A? B?) 1.67 GHz processor is really damn good already, and I'd be (rather, am) just happy enough with it, personally. @NorCalBear I'd recommend just settling with it, and if over the months you are still using your machine that much, like you really mean it, THEN you might want to look into the 7448 step. But I suspect if you get this far, you won't find the need for it.

With a 2.0 GHz 7448 with twice the L2 cache (1 MB vs. 512 KB), it's true everything improves, especially in a sluggish OS like Mac OS X (as opposed to the real Mac OS), but in practice you really notice a benefit with compression/decompression, so if you ZIP/unZIP a lot or similar, which you might if you suck the Macintosh Garden dry with huge compressed ISO downloads all the time, then it's something nice to have. But it's not like the wait time with the stock 7447 will be some unholy trial, so it's fine to just sit and wait. But other than that? Meh, maybe some small speed bump with virtual machines. Slightly smoother HD content. And maybe slightly increase the FPS in ultra-heavy, late OS X games.

About OS 9, that's a nice thought, and a thought in the right direction might I add, but unfortunately the DLSD is the ONLY G4 that we have no record of anyone booting the actual Mac OS with, ever, even in the Mac OS 9 Lives! forums. We do believe it should be possible, if only we knew how to disable devices in the device tree in Open Firmware, and then trying to chop out one device at a time (if anyone knows enough OF to tell us how, that would be very welcome). I wondered if its DDR2 RAM could also be an issue, although developer of Windows NT on PowerMacs mentioned something that suggests if a system can handle DDR1, then it can also handle DDR2 (here).

However, even if you manage to boot it somehow, do keep expectations in check: It's nowhere near as disastrous as @Doq worded it, but you'd likely need an external a) USB audio adapter and b) mouse: trackpad would likely move too slowly, but should work, as should the keyboard, because OS 9 has USB drivers, so that should work just fine. Ethernet would also be likely fine, but needs checking. FireWire 400 may or may not work, FireWire 800 would likely work, although at FireWire 400 speeds due to lack of drivers. Likewise, USB 2.0 would work at USB 1.1 speeds. The audio adapter should address audio issues, if any in the first place. WiFi I don't know, but it'd be a real waste not to just use the Gigabit Ethernet port, to say the least. BlueTooth also don't know. (I really couldn't care any less for WiFi/BlueTooth, or rather, if they work, I make it a point to disable them 100% of the time, so when they don't work they just save me the trouble.)

But the ONE issue you'd have for which you have no solution short of writing/porting a driver for it yourself: the GPU. No GPU acceleration. So "video" per se should work perfectly fine, but software that makes use of the GPU simply won't be able to, and instead will behave as if your DLSD had no GPU in it in that regard.

Hopefully that addresses all the points and concerns. Go and get the most out of your awesome PowerBook, @NorCalBear!
 
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I wouldn't compare any of this with any "MacBook" or any other Intel/AMD/ARM-based junk with all of its associated hardware-level spyware and backdoors.

Notwithstanding the closed-source firmware blobs for the chipset to communicate with the CPU, the only known spyware or backdoors associated with Intel / AMD hardware would be the Management Engine and Platform Security Processor, respectively.

And in respect to the former, as detailed in the ME guide thread, all Core Duo / Core 2 Duo-based Macs (inc. Yonah, Merom, Penryn) are safe, with a cutoff period between 2010 to 2011 (the Mac Pro cutoff being in 2009) after Nehalem and up when the ME became more tightly integrated into the system, and then borderline embedded by the time of Sandy Bridge. And then even with the ME, I don't believe any shipped Intel Macs are capable of Active Management Technology, in theory preventing the ME from connecting to the internet.

Intel Macs containing the T2 chip however (iMac Pro and all models released 2018 and later), are a different story, as that is essentially Apple's own custom implementation of the ME with many similar vulnerabilities, and was later directly integrated into the Apple Silicon series chips (although I'm not sure if they still run bridgeOS).

That aside, while it can differ based on the manufacturer, most mainstream ARM designs also lack comparative technologies to the ME / PSP. In general, the most they would possess to that regard is the TrustZone secure enclave, which is equivalent to Intel's Trusted Platform Module technology, not the ME.

With all of that being said, the only real security issue for PowerPC systems are the equally ancient software options, unless you were to run modern Linux with typically half the capability of native OS X. Otherwise, I would agree that the hardware is rock solid, as the 750 and 7400 were even tested resistant to Spectre / Meltdown, unlike their x86 brethren (minus the Bonnell Intel Atom, which is uniquely immune to both vulnerabilities).
 
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I have a ~2005 17" PowerBook G4 1.67 Ghz DLSD/HR Al model, and I want to upgrade it as far as possible, for use as a hot rodded retro system with maximum capability. What are my options?

  • CPU: I've seen on YouTube from DosDude1 that it is theoretically possible to upgrade the PPC 7447a CPU to a 7448 model, but that requires not only finding 7448 chips, but also a steady hand and extensive soldering ability, neither of which I really have. According to benchmarks, he achieved a bit more than a 10% CPU benchmark improvement, and I read that they run cooler as well. I commented on his YouTube video, but until and unless he gets back to me, that's a pie in the sky dream of an upgrade. If someone has a way to contact him, please let me know!
  • Cooling: The Honeywell PTM7950 thermal pads look pretty nice for thermal contact performance improvement. Anyone know how they compare with some Thermal Grizzly paste?
  • Cooling 2: Are cooling fan replacements/upgrades an option? If so, which ones?
  • SSD: I know that the system uses the IDE interface, which I think maxes out at 100 MB/s, if memory serves. What's the recommended smallest IDE to M.2 adapter to use, and are there any restrictions on the M.2 drives that I choose to use, such as not fitting a 2280 drive, or any other gotchas? I did see a wiki entry on this, but there were no clear call out that any were specifically incompatible or especially recommended. I have an existing M.2 2280 drive that's not being used for anything right now that I'd like to put to good use.
  • Wi-Fi, bluetooth, and optical: Are there any available upgrades?
  • RAM: I know that the system uses DDR2/533 memory, up to 2x1 GB modules. What's the minimum as far as memory timings? Any gotchas there I should know about?
  • Display: Are there any upgrade options that use better technology (OLED?) or brighter backlights or higher resolutions/etc?
  • Speakers: Any upgrade options?
The planned software load-out would be a triple boot between Sorbet Leopard 1.5 with AquaFox (the most modern Mac OS and web browser I'm aware of for PPC), Fienix Linux, and OS 9.2.2, if possible. I know the latter is unsupported as hell, but I've seen on OS9Lives that it might be possible, with some broken stuff. If 9.2.2 is ultimately not possible, then the third option would be a copy of Leopard 10.4.11.

The best upgrade you can give your PowerBook is a new LCD panel.
 
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For what it's worth, DosDude1 is on MacRumors and fairly active. You could always send him a message about a cpu upgrade.
 
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@NorCalBear

If electroplating the aluminium casing with 9ct gold was possible would that also be a worthy upgrade?

I realise some people gain enjoyment from having “the best possible” but won’t you entertain the idea of just getting the best out of what you have? You might derive more satifaction in the long run.

After all, a fully upgraded Powerbook DLSD with the wrong software will perform worse than a stock model with the right software (and both will pale next to the first generation MBP?)
 
With a 2.0 GHz 7448 with twice the L2 cache (1 MB vs. 512 KB), it's true everything improves, especially in a sluggish OS like Mac OS X (as opposed to the real Mac OS), but in practice you really notice a benefit with compression/decompression

Once you start actually building some software, starting from compilers, higher CPU speed becomes a very tangible advantage.
 
Once you start actually building some software, starting from compilers, higher CPU speed becomes a very tangible advantage.
Who doesn't enjoy spending a week compiling GCC and a few essential libraries on a G4‽ My only active PPC Mac at the moment is a 1.25 GHz PowerBook (the last system to officially support Jaguar) and its a lovely machine, but can test ones patience if trying to build anything from the last decade.
 
If electroplating the aluminium casing with 9ct gold was possible would that also be a worthy upgrade?
Well, at least the G4 TiBook in gold finish looks incredible to me, even though I am not a pimp/rapper or a 3rd world dictator who are the normal target group for such things - so why not?! It looks so good I am sure it feels faster too! 😜
 

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@z970 I'm not sure if this affects the Intel models you whitelisted, but it is important to check if they are affected by the so-called "God Bit" that grants undue root access via a hidden CPU instruction:

Related to the story:

It's true though that we have to watch out for every firmware blob anywhere, even on PowerPC, though, such as Ethernet cards to name one big known offender. But by deliberating sticking with Intel/AMD/ARM in general, we are really asking for it. Of course, this is potentially true for every sufficiently-modern processor regardless of CPU ISA, so even RISC-V and PowerPC (e.g. the likely-backdoored POWER10) are threatened.

Personally, I find neither GNU/Linux nor any UNIX trustworthy, especially the likes of Mac OS X (more and more so with each major version jump), too much trust involved despite "open"-source, and that trust has been exploited in the past, but that's too much of a can of worms to open here and now, and the same could be said about literally any OS, old and new, even my cherished Mac OS 9.2.2. (Anyone here selling an Apple IIgs I can buy? ;) )

@barracuda156 That's a good point, actually, I completely forgot about that (those building Classilla on Mac OS 9, or even Mac OS X, can tell). Still, I get the impression this won't be in @NorCalBear's to-do list for the foreseeable future.
 
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