How might I install Windows on a blank internal drive WITHOUT using bootcamp?

[valdore]

The situation is this:

My bootable drive is a JBOD (concatenated array) of two internal disks. Therefore I cannot use Bootcamp.

I have placed a third blank drive in the third hard drive bay. I have my download of the Windows 7 beta, which I burned to a bootable disk using Disk Utility (.cdr file).

Now, might any of you in the audience be able to inform me of what I should do to get the Windows OS from the bootable disk onto the completely blank internal drive?

 

[diamond.g]

The situation is this:

My bootable drive is a JBOD (concatenated array) of two internal disks. Therefore I cannot use Bootcamp.

I have placed a third blank drive in the third hard drive bay. I have my download of the Windows 7 beta, which I burned to a bootable disk using Disk Utility (.cdr file).

Now, might any of you in the audience be able to inform me of what I should do to get the Windows OS from the bootable disk onto the completely blank internal drive?

If you have the x64 version of Windows 7 it should show the dvd (I believe you hold down option key on boot) in the list of boot volumes. Otherwise the Mac has no way of knowing to boot into BIOS compatibility mode.

 

[goMac]

If you have the x64 version of Windows 7 it should show the dvd (I believe you hold down option key on boot) in the list of boot volumes. Otherwise the Mac has no way of knowing to boot into BIOS compatibility mode.

That's not true.

Either hold option at boot or C. If you hold down option it will show your disks including a cd called "Windows". Otherwise, holding down C will boot you right into the disk.

64 bit doesn't matter.

 

[Macpropro80]

64 bit matters if you want to use all the power you payed for, and want more then 3 gigs of ram to work.

 

[goMac]

64 bit matters if you want to use all the power you payed for, and want more then 3 gigs of ram to work.

I run 32 bit Windows on my Mac Pro with 8 gigs of RAM just fine. Why? Because a bunch of my programs break under 64 bit Windows.

It runs just as fast as 64 bit Windows, but I don't have access to my full amount of RAM. I'm not doing 3D rendering under Windows or anything, so I'm fine with that.

(And yes, I own 64 bit XP and Vista.)

 

[sidewinder]

64 bit matters if you want to use all the power you payed for, and want more then 3 gigs of ram to work.

So few really understand the 32-bit address space issues of Windows and 32-bit Windows applications run under 64-bit Windows OS.

S-

 

[diamond.g]

That's not true.

Either hold option at boot or C. If you hold down option it will show your disks including a cd called "Windows". Otherwise, holding down C will boot you right into the disk.

64 bit doesn't matter.

My point was Windows 7 supports EFI and doesn't need BIOS. In that case 64bit does matter as it is the only consumer version of Windows that does that. Windows Server 2008 x64 (and R2) also supports booting from EFI.

 

[goMac]

My point was Windows 7 supports EFI and doesn't need BIOS. In that case 64bit does matter as it is the only consumer version of Windows that does that. Windows Server 2008 x64 (and R2) also supports booting from EFI.

Windows 7 (and Vista SP1) require a lot of command line tweaking to actually turn on the EFI booting. If you just stick in the CD and boot, it's not going to boot via EFI, it's still going to boot via BIOS.

What's the big problem with running under the BIOS emulator anyway? There's no slowdown, and running Windows under EFI means you can't use any BIOS hardware, like a BIOS graphics card.

 

[diamond.g]

Windows 7 (and Vista SP1) require a lot of command line tweaking to actually turn on the EFI booting. If you just stick in the CD and boot, it's not going to boot via EFI, it's still going to boot via BIOS.

What's the big problem with running under the BIOS emulator anyway? There's no slowdown, and running Windows under EFI means you can't use any BIOS hardware, like a BIOS graphics card.

Two fold, one it keeps Mac's behind on video hardware and two MBR booting has a 2 TB limit. Microsoft even recommends using GPT when you have a system disk over 2 TB. With 2TB single drives being released it is a matter of time before computers come with the option to put them in.


EDIT Upon further looking into it. It looks like Windows support GPT without the need for EFI, but if you can boot off the installation disk using the EFI side of your firmware it shouldn't require any more tweaking than booting off the OS X install DVD. Infor found off the installation guide [.docx]

 

[macz1]

With your setup (one blank drive entirely dedicated to Windows) the install is very easy as you do not need the formatting procedure in Bootcamp.

You simply start from the DVD you burned (either by pressing alt or C, as described above) and format the drive (if it isn't already) using the Windows installation setup. Make sure you choose the right one and then the installation can begin.

Once installed, you have to look for the right drivers of your hardware, because Apple does not provide any Windows 7 drivers AFAIK (XP and Vista 32/64 drivers are on the installation CD however, if you plan to install one of these after the Win7 experiment...)
To switch between Windows and OS X, the simplest way is the option key at startup. If the Windows install was successful, the once blank drive should appear as a new option to start from...


concerning EFI/BIOS etc.:
When your Mac Pro boots with OSX it uses EFI, pretty everything else uses the BIOS compatibility mode. Because you don't even notice that, This fact does not matter in 99.9% of the cases. If your Mac boots, it's OK. You do not need to know more than that in practice...

64bit: Most applications work under x64 Windows whitout problems (Speaking from my perspective, In the last year not a single app had a problem with the 64bit Vista I installed in my Mac...). But if you are using an app which is known to cause trouble with x64 or you want to make sure that every possible program will run, it's better to go the safe way and choose the 32bit version.

 

[goMac]

Upon further looking into it. It looks like Windows support GPT without the need for EFI, but if you can boot off the installation disk using the EFI side of your firmware it shouldn't require any more tweaking than booting off the OS X install DVD. Infor found off the installation guide [.docx]

Yeah, notice that those directions don't work on the Mac because they require access to an EFI shell. The Mac does not by default ship with an EFI shell. Just booting to the DVD won't boot to EFI, you need to configure the EFI firmware to actually boot the EFI loader.

In fact, those directions very clearly state if your machine supports both EFI and BIOS boot, that it will always default to BIOS boot, even if you're using an EFI compatible Windows.

The reason OS X boots EFI is because it ONLY supports EFI boot. The Mac will always use EFI boot as a fallback, but if BIOS boot exists, it will give it priority.

 

[diamond.g]

Yeah, notice that those directions don't work on the Mac because they require access to an EFI shell. The Mac does not by default ship with an EFI shell. Just booting to the DVD won't boot to EFI, you need to configure the EFI firmware to actually boot the EFI loader.

In fact, those directions very clearly state if your machine supports both EFI and BIOS boot, that it will always default to BIOS boot, even if you're using an EFI compatible Windows.

The reason OS X boots EFI is because it ONLY supports EFI boot. The Mac will always use EFI boot as a fallback, but if BIOS boot exists, it will give it priority.

It actually says that it is the UEFI firmwares choice to either boot using EFI or BIOS off the DVD. That would imply it is Apples fault that non OS X disks boot in BIOS mode.

Some EFI-compatible platforms support both UEFI and BIOS firmware, and it is not always apparent whether EFI or BIOS is the default DVD boot option. As UEFI firmware becomes more widely available, the UEFI firmware might use the EFI entry as the default DVD boot option. If you are not sure of the default boot behavior, you might be required to use the EFI boot options to explicitly start the correct EFI boot application, even if EFI Boot Manager supports booting from a DVD. Otherwise, Windows Setup might run in BIOS mode, which does not create the necessary GPT partitions.

 

[Macpropro80]

I run 32 bit Windows on my Mac Pro with 8 gigs of RAM just fine. Why? Because a bunch of my programs break under 64 bit Windows.

It runs just as fast as 64 bit Windows, but I don't have access to my full amount of RAM. I'm not doing 3D rendering under Windows or anything, so I'm fine with that.

(And yes, I own 64 bit XP and Vista.)

Congrats you payed for your 6 or 7 of you 8 cores to do NOTHING. 32 Bit Doesn't use more then 1 or 2 cores.

 

[goMac]

Congrats you payed for your 6 or 7 of you 8 cores to do NOTHING. 32 Bit Doesn't use more then 1 or 2 cores.

Dead wrong.

It's a PROCESSOR limit. It will only use up to two PROCESSORS. It will use all the cores on each processor.

Because my Mac Pro has two processors, Windows will use all four cores on each.

I can boot my Mac Pro into Windows and show you if you want, but I'd rather not considering I'm working right now and that would be a waste of my time.

(VMWare is incapable of passing each core as a core on a processor to Windows, so yes, under VMWare you will be limited to two cores.)

 

[diamond.g]

Congrats you payed for your 6 or 7 of you 8 cores to do NOTHING. 32 Bit Doesn't use more then 1 or 2 cores.

Not true, as long as goMac is using business or ultimate he has full use of both sockets. Microsoft doesn't limit on cores, only sockets. Anything more than 2 sockets requires Windows Server. Which is also why I think Apple should move the MP to the EX platform.

EDIT: beaten by a minute

 

[Macpropro80]

Doesnt matter what microsoft uses, If you have a 64 bit processor and a 32 bit OS YOUR NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR POWER.

Its like having a V8 engine and only using 2 of the 8 cylinders.

 

[goMac]

Doesnt matter what microsoft uses, If you have a 64 bit processor and a 32 bit OS YOUR NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR POWER.

Its like having a V8 engine and only using 2 of the 8 cylinders.

I'm telling you you're wrong. 32 bit Windows will use all 8 cores. I can see them all chugging away under the process manager in Vista Business on my Mac Pro. The only thing I'm loosing is RAM. But in since some apps I use on Windows don't run under 64 bit, it's either I lose some RAM, or I can't run my programs. Kind of an obvious choice.

But apparently you're not listening.

 

[sidewinder]

Congrats you payed for your 6 or 7 of you 8 cores to do NOTHING. 32 Bit Doesn't use more then 1 or 2 cores.

You are wrong. Being 32-bit or 64-bit has nothing to do with how many physical or logical processors can be used. XP Pro and Vista Business and Ultimate can use two physical processors and all cores. XP Home along with Vista Home Basic and Home Premium only support one physical processor but all cores on that processor.

You need to get your facts straight BEFORE spouting off.....

S-

 

[sidewinder]

Doesnt matter what microsoft uses, If you have a 64 bit processor and a 32 bit OS YOUR NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOUR POWER.

Its like having a V8 engine and only using 2 of the 8 cylinders.

Of course the system is going to work more efficiently (but not 4 times more efficiently) running in 64-bit mode. But that is not what you said in your first comment. You said:

"32 Bit Doesn't use more then 1 or 2 cores."

That is completely wrong.

S-

 

[Macpropro80]

Why even use windows, it sucks. If you need to use windows programs use linux and wine. Dont even waste your time and money with any windows.

 

[goMac]

Why even use windows, it sucks. If you need to use windows programs use linux and wine. Dont even waste your time and money with any windows.

I get all versions of Windows (including the 64 bit versions) for free. I actually have everything past Windows 95 running on my Mac Pro (Vista under Boot Camp) along with a few Linux distros and OS X Server. I use Windows to run Windows software because it works, not because I have fun using it.

And before anyone asks, I'm a developer, so I'm not just crazily installing them. I need them all for testing software.

 

[apfhex]

Why even use windows, it sucks.

Stop trolling.

To bottom line this... all you need to do is boot from the Windows install disc and format the drive you want to put it on. All Bootcamp does is make a bootable partition for you, so if you're using any entirely separate drive, you don't need it.

FYI in case you have trouble installing Win7, see here.

p.s. Ah, one more thing because you have multiple drives. I had problems installing Vista with 3 hard drives in my machine. It would see the Bootcamp partition but refused to install to it. Removing the other drives got it to work. I guess it's a bug in Vista (on the MP hardware at least) and I don't know if Win7 has the same issue.

 

[grue]

Why even use windows, it sucks. If you need to use windows programs use linux and wine. Dont even waste your time and money with any windows.

Apple sackriders are so cool.