Image Retention on 27" iMac 2013

[TripleMoxy]

I've just taken delivery of a replacement 27" 2013 iMac – the first one had a yellow tint at the bottom of the screen – and this one appears to have image retention.

It is not visible on the normal desktop during normal use, but it is visible, as a faint outline of the windows on a previous screen, when I swap to the grey chequered background of the widget screen. It disappears after a while, but my concern is that this problem will increase over time.

I'm still within the two week return period, but I don't want to return another iMac if this is normal behaviour for 2013 iMacs or IPS screens in general.

I hope that someone can assist.

 

[Fatboy71]

I'm still within the two week return period, but I don't want to return another iMac if this is normal behaviour for 2013 iMacs or IPS screens in general.

I have the Late 2012 iMac (which has the same screen as the 2013 iMac) and I have no yellowing, no image retention issues even when leaving a static image on the screen for durations of time. So this is not normal behaviour for screens/IPS screens.

The thing with an issue like what your having is, you know the image retention is there and your eyes will be drawn to it, so you will always see it.

If I were you I would contact Apple and arrange for another replacement. If you can get to an Apple Store (and providing your iMac is not a custom build model) for to return it, I would return it that way, and ask the store staff if they can try the iMac that they are going to give you before you accept it, just in case it suffers the same issues has you have had.

 

[TripleMoxy]

I have the Late 2012 iMac (which has the same screen as the 2013 iMac) and I have no yellowing, no image retention issues even when leaving a static image on the screen for durations of time. So this is not normal behaviour for screens/IPS screens.

The thing with an issue like what your having is, you know the image retention is there and your eyes will be drawn to it, so you will always see it.

If I were you I would contact Apple and arrange for another replacement. If you can get to an Apple Store (and providing your iMac is not a custom build model) for to return it, I would return it that way, and ask the store staff if they can try the iMac that they are going to give you before you accept it, just in case it suffers the same issues has you have had.

Thank you for your reply. Just out of curiosity, do you operate the system at full brightness or lower? It seems to be much worse and happen more quickly when I run it at full brightness.

Also, the very slight ghost image only shows up on the grey background of the widgets screen.

I can live with the current level of image retention, as it doesn't show up on the normal desktop, but my main concern is that it will get worse over time and start to appear on the standard desktop.

Can anyone else confirm if they get the behaviour complained of above?

 

[Chippy99]

Thank you for your reply. Just out of curiosity, do you operate the system at full brightness or lower? It seems to be much worse and happen more quickly when I run it at full brightness.

Well it would do, wouldn't it.

Why do you ever run it all full brightness? Are you using it outdoors in the desert or something?

Normal brightness should be around 120cd/m2 for colour critical work, which is the slider around half way and you want it lower than that for writing letters, working on spreadsheets, reading text on forums etc. Perhaps 1/3 brightness is appropriate for normal use. Full brightness is far too bright and long term use will cause eye strain, not to mention a damaged screen!

 

[Fatboy71]

Thank you for your reply. Just out of curiosity, do you operate the system at full brightness or lower? It seems to be much worse and happen more quickly when I run it at full brightness.

Also, the very slight ghost image only shows up on the grey background of the widgets screen.

I can live with the current level of image retention, as it doesn't show up on the normal desktop, but my main concern is that it will get worse over time and start to appear on the standard desktop.

Can anyone else confirm if they get the behaviour complained of above?

I have my brightness set at halfway, and I also have auto brightness box ticked (think it's called auto brightness). Depending on the brightness in the room (as I have a south facing window just off to the side of my desk) the brightness can ramp itself up to around 80 to 90 percent.

 

[rei101]

We have one in my office with the border of the previous desktop image burned on a side. It has been like that for months now.

 

[TripleMoxy]

Well it would do, wouldn't it.

Why do you ever run it all full brightness? Are you using it outdoors in the desert or something?

Normal brightness should be around 120cd/m2 for colour critical work, which is the slider around half way and you want it lower than that for writing letters, working on spreadsheets, reading text on forums etc. Perhaps 1/3 brightness is appropriate for normal use. Full brightness is far too bright and long term use will cause eye strain, not to mention a damaged screen!

Fair point I suppose, but I'm just concerned that some people seem to be suggesting that if it exhibits this behaviour now it will become progressively worse until the image is permanent.

Also, I notice that the screens in the Apple stores that I've visited are on full brightness and I can't notice any of the image retention in the widget screen that I see on my screen - although this could be due to the much brighter lighting in the store.

I do work at about 50% brightness, so I'm going to see how it behaves over the next two weeks, but I just don't relish the prospect of having a discussion with an Apple store genius about whether image retention is normal or not - as some of the people here suggested might happen - if there is a pronounced retention problem irrespective of brightness.

 

[brdeveloper]

Image retention and uneven yellowing seem to be the "normal behaviour" of Apple IPS displays. I think even low-res IPS displays from other brands have these issues, but the problem is more evident on higher contrast ratio, high res IPS displays. If you ask me what do I prefer between image retention and uneven yellowing, I'd say: image retention is better.

Brands like NEC and Eizo provide fine tuning for their displays, that is, you (or their software drivers/calibrators) can correct the color cast from a small region of the screen, so they're way more color-uniform than the others. I don't know why Apple doesn't employ the same approach, but I think the reasons are mainly cost of production and also that make the displays larger and thicker.

 

[DerekS]

Don't freak out about this. Mine had image retention ONCE and I've never been able to reproduce it.

I think it's part of breaking in a new display.

 

[WilliamG]

Image retention and uneven yellowing seem to be the "normal behaviour" of Apple IPS displays. I think even low-res IPS displays from other brands have these issues, but the problem is more evident on higher contrast ratio, high res IPS displays. If you ask me what do I prefer between image retention and uneven yellowing, I'd say: image retention is better.

Brands like NEC and Eizo provide fine tuning for their displays, that is, you (or their software drivers/calibrators) can correct the color cast from a small region of the screen, so they're way more color-uniform than the others. I don't know why Apple doesn't employ the same approach, but I think the reasons are mainly cost of production and also that make the displays larger and thicker.

I really can't agree with this. Most people do not have image retention. I've never seen it on an iMac and I've owned numerous iMacs. I also game a lot on my iMac and keep the brightness cranked during gaming sessions. Zero IR.

To the OP, exchange the system.

 

[TripleMoxy]

Thank you all for your replies. I'm going to monitor - no pun intended - how it behaves at 50% and lower brightness and see whether the problem increases over the short time I have left before my 2 week return window closes.

It's hardly a scientific approach, but I have to decide somehow.

If anyone else has any experience in respect of image retention - particularly those who noticed it on day 1 and have had their machine for a long time - I would be grateful if they could comment. As I've mentioned a few times, my main concern is whether it is likely to get significantly worse.

----------

I really can't agree with this. Most people do not have image retention. I've never seen it on an iMac and I've owned numerous iMacs. I also game a lot on my iMac and keep the brightness cranked during gaming sessions. Zero IR.

To the OP, exchange the system.

Hi, WilliamG. If I returned it a second time (the original screen had yellowing) I would feel a little crazy - like one of those obsessives on a quixotic search for perfection - so I would probably just return it.

However, I would miss it quite a bit now that I've had some time with it. If it weren't for those issues, it would be the perfect machine for me.

By the way, have you ever checked whether you have any retention on the widgets screen. The image retention I've noticed isn't visible on the normal desktop, only on the widgets screen.

 

[brdeveloper]

I really can't agree with this. Most people do not have image retention. I've never seen it on an iMac and I've owned numerous iMacs. I also game a lot on my iMac and keep the brightness cranked during gaming sessions. Zero IR.

To the OP, exchange the system.

Well, I've seen several iMacs with uneven yellowing, but I agree with you... I only saw image retention in retina MBPs.

 

[WilliamG]

Thank you all for your replies. I'm going to monitor - no pun intended - how it behaves at 50% and lower brightness and see whether the problem increases over the short time I have left before my 2 week return window closes.

It's hardly a scientific approach, but I have to decide somehow.

If anyone else has any experience in respect of image retention - particularly those who noticed it on day 1 and have had their machine for a long time - I would be grateful if they could comment. As I've mentioned a few times, my main concern is whether it is likely to get significantly worse.

----------



Hi, WilliamG. If I returned it a second time (the original screen had yellowing) I would feel a little crazy - like one of those obsessives on a quixotic search for perfection - so I would probably just return it.

However, I would miss it quite a bit now that I've had some time with it. If it weren't for those issues, it would be the perfect machine for me.

By the way, have you ever checked whether you have any retention on the widgets screen. The image retention I've noticed isn't visible on the normal desktop, only on the widgets screen.

Yes, I've even done the checkerboard torture test, leaving that image up for over an hour, with no IR visible afterwards.

http://www.marco.org/rmbp-irtest.html

I assume your first one did not have any IR, so it's not unreasonable to request another iMac. By the way, all iMacs are "yellower" toward the bottom of the screen. Some of it is viewing angle (lower your head and you'll see that yellow fade), and some of it is panel. But you'll never find a yellow-free panel, so don't sweat that too much.

Well, I've seen several iMacs with uneven yellowing, but I agree with you... I only saw image retention in retina MBPs.

I've not seen it in any of my rMBPs, but that was pretty prevalent from what I recall.

 

[brdeveloper]

Hi, WilliamG. If I returned it a second time (the original screen had yellowing) I would feel a little crazy - like one of those obsessives on a quixotic search for perfection - so I would probably just return it.

What you call "quixotic search for perfection" is just considered normal by companies that take color accuracy seriously.

Image retention is a minor issue if you deal with photography or you read academic papers with white backgrounds. It's way less disturbing than a display showing distinct color casts depending on the region of the screen.

 

[Chippy99]

Image retention and uneven yellowing seem to be the "normal behaviour" of Apple IPS displays. I think even low-res IPS displays from other brands have these issues, but the problem is more evident on higher contrast ratio, high res IPS displays. If you ask me what do I prefer between image retention and uneven yellowing, I'd say: image retention is better.

Brands like NEC and Eizo provide fine tuning for their displays, that is, you (or their software drivers/calibrators) can correct the color cast from a small region of the screen, so they're way more color-uniform than the others. I don't know why Apple doesn't employ the same approach, but I think the reasons are mainly cost of production and also that make the displays larger and thicker.

The reason why the have better uniformity on NEC and EIZO panels is because they use better panels. They only use the A+ grade panels to start with and reject the ones with clouding and poor uniformity.

Beyond that, they also (on some models) do uniformity correction in firmware as you describe. But by the way, you could in theory fix a bottom screen yellow tint in software - because you can of course change the colour of every pixel in software. So it would not need a local-dimming backlight to do this and the screen need be no thicker.

I would imagine some (very) smart person could write an app to fix the yellow tint by measuring different colour temperatures all over the screen and producing a colour profile that varied according to the screen position. I am not entirely sure how this all works deep inside the OS however and it might be very difficult to do, but it would certainly be possible.

 

[TripleMoxy]

Yes, I've even done the checkerboard torture test, leaving that image up for over an hour, with no IR visible afterwards.

http://www.marco.org/rmbp-irtest.html

I assume your first one did not have any IR, so it's not unreasonable to request another iMac. By the way, all iMacs are "yellower" toward the bottom of the screen. Some of it is viewing angle (lower your head and you'll see that yellow fade), and some of it is panel. But you'll never find a yellow-free panel, so don't sweat that too much.



I've not seen it in any of my rMBPs, but that was pretty prevalent from what I recall.

I ran your stress test and it left a quite pronounced pattern on the screen, even at 60% brightness, that persisted for some time afterwards.

I am starting to think that this isn't normal. Although I've noticed lots of articles about persistence being a normal feature of IPS screens, there seems to be a lot of difference in how long the ghosting effect lasts.

Obviously, I'd rather not go through the rigmarole of organising a replacement, but I think that I might give it one last go. My machine's spec is as follows, by the way:

• 3.5GHz Quad-core Intel Core i7
• 8GB RAM
• 1TB Flash Storage
• NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M 4GB GDDR5

 

[MrGimper]

I have a late 2012 27" and I have to do a lot of work in a win8 VM. I've just noticed recently that my screen has a slight "band" across the bottom which is always there. Coincidently (not!), this band is the exact same height as the windows task bar. May need another screen replacement :-(

 

[TripleMoxy]

I have a late 2012 27" and I have to do a lot of work in a win8 VM. I've just noticed recently that my screen has a slight "band" across the bottom which is always there. Coincidently (not!), this band is the exact same height as the windows task bar. May need another screen replacement :-(

Wow! How many replacements have you had, and how did Apple react to requesting a replacement because of the retention issue? Their help page seems to suggest that it's normal.

 

[MrGimper]

I had a replacement about 6 months ago due to dead pixels. That's the only one.

 

[MrGimper]

Wow! How many replacements have you had, and how did Apple react to requesting a replacement because of the retention issue? Their help page seems to suggest that it's normal.

When I go in for this replacement I'll not make any reference to image retention.... I'll just say "what's this dirty line across the bottom of my screen" ... their job to diagnose it, not mine

 

[TripleMoxy]

When I go in for this replacement I'll not make any reference to image retention.... I'll just say "what's this dirty line across the bottom of my screen" ... their job to diagnose it, not mine

Clever!

I'm really torn as to what to do now. I'm not decisive at the best of times. I really like the iMac, but I'm worried that what appears to be a mild bit of ghosting could develop into what you're seeing on your machine.

I might give them a ring this afternoon and ask for a second replacement. Hopefully, this one won't turn up with some new form of weirdness...

 

[TripleMoxy]

I've just been on to Apple after sales. I've got to ring their technical department later so that they can run me through a few tests and configuration options. If there's still ghosting, then I can request a second replacement which - they assure me - will be thoroughly tested before it's sent out.

They confirmed that they do use two different manufacturers for their screens though.

Let's see what the outcome is...

 

[WilliamG]

I ran your stress test and it left a quite pronounced pattern on the screen, even at 60% brightness, that persisted for some time afterwards.

I am starting to think that this isn't normal. Although I've noticed lots of articles about persistence being a normal feature of IPS screens, there seems to be a lot of difference in how long the ghosting effect lasts.

Obviously, I'd rather not go through the rigmarole of organising a replacement, but I think that I might give it one last go. My machine's spec is as follows, by the way:

• 3.5GHz Quad-core Intel Core i7
• 8GB RAM
• 1TB Flash Storage
• NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780M 4GB GDDR5

Exchange it. There's nothing Apple can do with their testing to convince you your screen is working fine. You should not have image retention. You know it and I know it. Good luck with the replacement!

 

[Lava Lamp Freak]

It isn't normal behavior for an LCD, but it isn't exactly rare either. I had image retention on my first 2012 iMac, and I exchanged multiple times and still had image retention. I think out of five iMacs, four had retention. Of course every time I exchanged it I was told by the salesperson that they had never seen anything like that before. However, even the iMacs on display in the store at that time had image retention problems.

I personally find image retention to be completely unacceptable. I gave up on iMacs because of that and decided to get a separate desktop/display. After that, I also had retention with a 27" Apple Cinema Display and a 27" Dell U2713HM. Right now I'm using a 24" Dell that doesn't have image retention.

I went to the Apple Store a few months ago, because I was thinking about getting an iMac again. One of the 27" 2013 iMacs on display had image retention. When using iMovie and iPhoto I could see the outline of browser windows in the grey area.

If it bothers you, exchange it and hope for the best. Here is a link to my old thread.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1509571/

 

[Fatboy71]

In all the time I have been around or using LCD screens, I have not once seen image retention. I'm not denying the issue exists, but in perspective the issue is rare.

And the posts you read on the various forums about it, represent a small percentage, and you don't hear about the majority of the people who buy iMac's or other devices with LCD screens that have no issues with image retention, as people only tend to post on forums when they have issues rather than when they don't have issues.

I have only twice seen image retention and these were on two different plasma tvs.