Intel 750 nvme pcie SSD on the G4/G5?

[Vega20]

Have a couple of these laying around and need an excuse to put them to use. The 750 is supposedly one of the few models with a built-in legacy option rom and hence in theory compatible with devices like the PowerMac G4 or G5. I have a G4 Digital Audio, could it be possible with a pci-pcie adapter? A later G5 with a pcie slot sounds more likely but I don't have one to try. Probably just a pipe dream but thought it was worth a shot to ask.

 

[weckart]

Have a couple of these laying around and need an excuse to put them to use. The 750 is supposedly one of the few models with a built-in legacy option rom and hence in theory compatible with devices like the PowerMac G4 or G5. I have a G4 Digital Audio, could it be possible with a pci-pcie adapter? A later G5 with a pcie slot sounds more likely but I don't have one to try. Probably just a pipe dream but thought it was worth a shot to ask.

The legacy option is AHCI as far as I can tell, which the PowerMac G4 supports so it should be possible theoretically. Tom's Hardware has had a go with another form factor drive. Not sure I would want all that rattling around in my G4 with the size of the 750 but it might work.

20-Year-Old Apple Power Mac G4 Gets M.2 SSD Upgrade, Despite 133 MBps PCI Bus

A new SSD meets a 20-year-old Power Mac G4.

www.tomshardware.com

Reading from the original French article, it only works under Leoparad and Read/Write speeds of 90/40MB/s suggest that this is something of a Pyrrhic victory. You might get slightly better results from a G5, which does support the SATA protocol.

 

[Vega20]

You might get slightly better results from a G5, which does support the SATA protocol.

It also natively supports pcie, at least the later models. That might be the best use case, the G4 just seems too slow for any real performance difference even with the proper adapter. I'm better off getting a PCI-SATA adapter or something. Even an IDE SSD is faster than that. Who knows, may end up with a G5 Quad some day and give it a try. Thanks!

 

[Amethyst1]

Have a couple of these laying around and need an excuse to put them to use. The 750 is supposedly one of the few models with a built-in legacy option rom and hence in theory compatible with devices like the PowerMac G4 or G5.

The Intel 750 is an NVMe SSD, which no version of OS X prior to High Sierra fully supports OOTB. And there's no public NVMe driver for OS X on PPC (yet). The legacy option ROM enables PCs which can't boot from PCIe SSDs on their own to boot from it. The 750 might work on Linux on PPC Macs.

The legacy option is AHCI as far as I can tell, which the PowerMac G4 supports so it should be possible theoretically. [...] You might get slightly better results from a G5, which does support the SATA protocol.

AHCI PCIe SSDs do work just fine in Leopard on a PCIe G5, and the four-lane Samsung SM951 has been shown to rock the boat at 800 MB/s in a Quad. This has nothing to do with the G5 having SATA.

 

[weckart]

The Intel 750 is an NVMe SSD, which no version of OS X prior to High Sierra fully supports OOTB. And there's no public NVMe driver for OS X on PPC (yet). The legacy option ROM enables PCs which can't boot from PCIe SSDs on their own to boot from it. The 750 might work on Linux on PPC Macs.

Yeah, I was a bit confused by the OP's post and did a quick check. It did seem from one spec sheet or review I got that the 750 supported both NVME and AHCI - I assumed that it had both controllers onboard and the legacy switch was the shifter. Seems like this is not the case after all.

 

[Vega20]

The Intel 750 is an NVMe SSD, which no version of OS X prior to High Sierra fully supports OOTB.

Correct, like @weckart I was not sure if the option rom was for AHCI backwards compatibility or something else like pcie. It seems to be the latter. Perhaps the 750 SATA model does have something like that as AHCI is a SATA interface although I doubt it. Looks like the best bet is a AHCI compatible card like the SM951 but only on the G5.

 

[DearthnVader]

Correct, like @weckart I was not sure if the option rom was for AHCI backwards compatibility or something else like pcie. It seems to be the latter. Perhaps the 750 SATA model does have something like that as AHCI is a SATA interface although I doubt it. Looks like the best bet is a AHCI compatible card like the SM951 but only on the G5.

Well if it has an option ROM then "we" could write an FCode ROM to make it bootable on PowerPC, but it would still require an AHCI driver in the OS you want to boot.

Basically we'd just be loading the boot loader from the disk in open firmware and that would have to be able to load the OS Kernel and AHCI drivers.

As has been said, Leopard PPC and Linux PPC have AHCI drivers, older versions would need us to write and ACHI driver for those OS's.

It's all doable, but as has been shown, the speeds would likely not make it really worthwhile, but it's cool the card has an option ROM.

 

[Vega20]

older versions would need us to write and ACHI driver for those OS's.

It'd probably very much be a vanity project, especially at those speeds. I'm curious which spec sheet @weckart found as that could confirm if the Intel 750 does indeed have an AHCI mode like the SM951 or just PCIe NVMe compatibility.

 

[weckart]

Perhaps the 750 SATA model does have something like that as AHCI is a SATA interface although I doubt it.

Sadly not. It's not a SATA interface, although it looks similar and since benchmarks show it running at the same speed as the PCIe version, we can assume that it is an NVME drive with a mini-SAS interface.

 

[DearthnVader]

Sadly not. It's not a SATA interface, although it looks similar and since benchmarks show it running at the same speed as the PCIe version, we can assume that it is an NVME drive with a mini-SAS interface.

It'd probably very much be a vanity project, especially at those speeds. I'm curious which spec sheet @weckart found as that could confirm if the Intel 750 does indeed have an AHCI mode like the SM951 or just PCIe NVMe compatibility.

At any rate, if we had access to the proper documentation and we wrote our own drivers I'm sure we could push the upper limits of the interface we were using to connect the drive.

That is to say the flash chips and circuitry of the drive itself are likely good enough to come near the maximum theoretical speeds of PCI 33mHz( 133MB/s ) PCI 33mHz 64bit( 266MB/s ) and so on.

Is this the contraption of which you speak?

Intel SSD 750 Review

The Intel 750 series is a high performance SSD with NVM Express technology for…

www.storagereview.com

 

[Amethyst1]

At any rate, if we had access to the proper documentation and we wrote our own drivers I'm sure we could push the upper limits of the interface we were using to connect the drive.

The Samsung SM951 (PCIe 3.0 ×4) has been shown to hit 800 MB/s in the Quad (PCIe 1.0 ×4), but it can do much more via PCIe 2.0 or 3.0. Attempts to raise that limit can be made using the SM951 I suppose, although an NVMe driver for OS X on PPC would definitely be cool.

 

[Vega20]

Is this the contraption of which you speak?

Intel SSD 750 Review

The Intel 750 series is a high performance SSD with NVM Express technology for…

www.storagereview.com

That's the one. It was quite a popular upgrade from drives like the Fusion IoDrive Duo and Intel 710/910 back in the day. Honestly the 710/910 might have better compatibility with a PCIe G5 as they are a SATA/SAS to PCIe bridge. No way that would work on a G4 though.

The Samsung SM951 (PCIe 3.0 ×4)

I remember people where using them in the Mac Pro 5,1 with pcie 2.0, it hit around 1300 MB/s. 800 MB/s is very impressive on the G5, in theory you could get up to 1000 although if it's worth the effort is another question.

Sadly not. It's not a SATA interface, although it looks similar and since benchmarks show it running at the same speed as the PCIe version, we can assume that it is an NVME drive with a mini-SAS interface.

Huh, I completely forgot it was pcie on mini-SAS. The 2.5" chassis was probably what threw me off. SAS does work in Leopard, although NVMe is out of the question of course unless someone writes a driver.

This thread goes into detail on what drives supposedly have an AHCI mode, the 750 pcie included. Intel might be able to confirm it although they never provide much help on EOL devices. https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/nvme-drive-booting-in-ahci-mode.2500796/

 

[Ataman Honcho Honchev]

The Samsung SM951 (PCIe 3.0 ×4) has been shown to hit 800 MB/s in the Quad (PCIe 1.0 ×4), but it can do much more via PCIe 2.0 or 3.0. Attempts to raise that limit can be made using the SM951 I suppose, although an NVMe driver for OS X on PPC would definitely be cool.

I wrote it few years ago. I can't do much at this time because I am busy with the PATA / SATA SIM on "9" and the KEXT driver. NVMe for "9" with a proper adapter is possible, but the theoretical speed is not much as these long 64-bit PCI slots are 33MHZ only. A regular SATA drive with a proper SATA adapter will do the same - and there isn't any headache with the absence of the boot ROM.

So for "9" the best way is to port the Marvell 6042 or Silicon Image 3124 SATA-II driver.

The current headache is the inheritant problem of "9" being unfit to "serialize" transfers (i.e. reentrancy problem of the SIM). It was always there, still is there and both known SIM-s (mine and of ACard) basically cover the bug with a thick paint.

I made some sort of solution today - but I am afraid, adding a real NCQ and FIS-based Port Multiplier support to "9" is a freaking challenge.

Starting with 10.2.x things look much better for NVMe and starting with Leopard not any worse (actually, better!) than even Ventura.

So far the earliest OS where my NVMe driver works is PPC Leopard, but earlier could be possible.

 

[Ataman Honcho Honchev]

That's the one. It was quite a popular upgrade from drives like the Fusion IoDrive Duo and Intel 710/910 back in the day. Honestly the 710/910 might have better compatibility with a PCIe G5 as they are a SATA/SAS to PCIe bridge. No way that would work on a G4 though.

I remember people where using them in the Mac Pro 5,1 with pcie 2.0, it hit around 1300 MB/s. 800 MB/s is very impressive on the G5, in theory you could get up to 1000 although if it's worth the effort is another question.

Huh, I completely forgot it was pcie on mini-SAS. The 2.5" chassis was probably what threw me off. SAS does work in Leopard, although NVMe is out of the question of course unless someone writes a driver.

This thread goes into detail on what drives supposedly have an AHCI mode, the 750 pcie included. Intel might be able to confirm it although they never provide much help on EOL devices. https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/nvme-drive-booting-in-ahci-mode.2500796/

I have one at home, it has no bracket tho...
Sometimes I play with it.

The only NVMe drive catastrophically incompatible with (any) MacOS is the Samsung 950 Pro.
Instant kernel panic because Apple is unable to properly de-code it's PCIe registers.

I have a pair of these - sadly AFAIK this is the only drive which implemented ROM-on-Drive feature.
But even if I would somehow get the ROM feature working so far the result won't go past the first I/O and Kernel Panic.

 

[Ataman Honcho Honchev]

Well if it has an option ROM then "we" could write an FCode ROM to make it bootable on PowerPC, but it would still require an AHCI driver in the OS you want to boot.

Basically we'd just be loading the boot loader from the disk in open firmware and that would have to be able to load the OS Kernel and AHCI drivers.

As has been said, Leopard PPC and Linux PPC have AHCI drivers, older versions would need us to write and ACHI driver for those OS's.

It's all doable, but as has been shown, the speeds would likely not make it really worthwhile, but it's cool the card has an option ROM.

I can allocate some time for NVMe FCode, but I have to finish the update for SATA / PATA PCI (-X) cards first.
It's a full time job. Better to say: full time day and night job.

 

[Vega20]

The only NVMe drive catastrophically incompatible with (any) MacOS is the Samsung 950 Pro.
Instant kernel panic because Apple is unable to properly de-code it's PCIe registers.

People have had some success in with nvmefix.kext in OCLP but now that's completely busted in Ventura and Sonoma. Samsung drives just stink in general, see the recent 980 Pro debacle.

I have a pair of these - sadly AFAIK this is the only drive which implemented ROM-on-Drive feature.
But even if I would somehow get the ROM feature working so far the result won't go past the first I/O and Kernel Panic.

That's unfortunate. If you do end up making some breakthrough do let us know but it's probably not worth your time haha. I guess the best bet for a G4 is flashing a SATA controller or going the m.2 route and for the G5 is the SM951. Not bad to be honest, especially compared to IDE.

 

[Ataman Honcho Honchev]

People have had some success in with nvmefix.kext in OCLP but now that's completely busted in Ventura and Sonoma. Samsung drives just stink in general, see the recent 980 Pro debacle.

That's unfortunate. If you do end up making some breakthrough do let us know but it's probably not worth your time haha. I guess the best bet for a G4 is flashing a SATA controller or going the m.2 route and for the G5 is the SM951. Not bad to be honest, especially compared to IDE.

Nope. Actually, the WORST bet for a G4 is flashing a SATA controller. At least commercially. If done privately I tend to look the other way.

One guy already received from me a "Cease-And-Desist" e-mail and a promise that he risks that I will report his activity to the cops: he wanted to go commercial way.
(In response he sent few nasty and stupid e-mails - but who cares: he complied with the request and it was clear, he is not my friend anyway).

eBay is the next. After several e-mails and recorded chats my beloved "seller" (pirate) from HK

2 Port SATA PCI Controller Card Apple Macintosh PowerMac G3/G4/G5 *OS X *OS9 SSD | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 2 Port SATA PCI Controller Card Apple Macintosh PowerMac G3/G4/G5 *OS X *OS9 SSD at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

is still there, despite their promises. Maybe a lawsuit in range of around $500K will convince them to act as agreed.

You guys may say a lot of "thanks" to that eBay-promoted piracy in particular because it deprived me of money which I would turn into living expenses. Instead of continuing working on what revolutionized the entire ATA / SATA scene on the Mac for years I had to look for either unrelated jobs or to work for my competitors.

These weren't good - but at least I saved some money: the de-facto FirmTek R&D moved to a country with much lower living costs than in USA.

As already mentioned, not only the total refreshment of all SATA / ATA is in the works - but few new controllers as well. One is VIA6421A, basically done. The other is Frodo from ServerWorks, based on Broadcom 5770.
And of course all Marvell 88SXyyyy controllers.

 

[Ataman Honcho Honchev]

One way would be to "hijack" the NVMe card with a different SATA card.
All the Silicon Image cards have a large ROM space (512K) with enough room for NVMe FCode driver.

In the theory that driver can be "unleashed" on any NVMe drive sitting in a bridge controller.

The biggest problem is the PCI-PCIe bridge. There are few - and only the one sold by StarTech works properly.
The rest is buggy. In addition to that, there no PCIe x4 <---> PCI 64-bit bridge compatible with G4 was ever made.
The one compatible with 3.3V PCI-X slots of G5 was marketed for over $110 and not surprisingly it was a failure.

One can make a proper bridge any time... but who?