iPhone 5 Unlock or does Sprint Violates Recent Legislation?

[biv1982]

Hi guys, I'm new to this forum.

I have a question and wondering if anyone will be able to give me an answer.

So I'm sure everyone have heard about New Phone Unlocking Legislation and voluntary set of principles:

Dec. 12/2013 from the CTIA statement:

"We are pleased to announce AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile, U.S. Cellular and Verizon Wireless agreed to adopt a voluntary set of six principles for unlocking of consumers' mobile phones and tablets."


U.S. wireless carriers have agreed to six principles regarding unlocking cellphones and tablets:

Disclosure: Each carrier will have to explain its policy on unlocking clearly and concisely on its website.

Prepaid Unlocking Policy: Carriers will unlock prepaid mobile devices upon request, no later than one year after the initial activation.

Postpaid Unlocking Policy: Carriers will unlock or provide necessary information to unlock their devices to customers and former customers after the completion of a service contract, device financing plan or the payment of an early termination fee.

Notice: Carriers that lock devices have to notify customers that they are eligible to unlock their devices when eligibility occurs or will automatically unlock devices remotely when they are eligible.

Response Time: Carriers will unlock eligible devices within two business days of receiving a request.

Deployed Personnel Unlocking Policy: Carriers will unlock mobile devices for deployed military personnel for customers in good standing.

In other words, carriers will now agree to unlock your phone within two business days, provided your phone is fully paid without subsidy, or you've completed your service contract or paid an ETF. For prepaid phones, the carriers must unlock a phone if a customer requests it no later than one year after activation.

http://www.ctia.org/docs/default-source/fcc-filings/ctia-letter-on-unlocking.pdf

So basically, anyone should be able to just call Spring or Verizon or AT&T and unlock any phone!

So I decided to try, I have iPhone 5 locked to Sprint, but otherwise paid in full, clean ESN.

Sprint's CSR told me that they CANNOT unlock iPhone or any iOS device, even taking into account recent legislation. She told me they can unlock any Android or Featured phone, but not iPhone.

Here's our chat:

You: can you tell me if your iPhone 5 will work with carriers like Verizon or t-moble if you unlock it?

Sylvia S.: Unfortunately, the apple phone can not be unlocked.
Sylvia S.: to use with any other service provider*

You: what are you talking about? You guys have volatility adopted a new unlocking policy on Dec. 12 due to recent legislation
You: You would literally be breaking the law if you'd to refuse to unlock it

Sylvia S.: I agree to your point about the new unlocking policy, however the iOS devices are technically not able to be unlocked.
Sylvia S.: We can unlock the Andriod and the featured phones once the service on the line is canceled.

You: So you're saying that you still can't unlock the iPhone? and blaming Apple's software for that?

Sylvia S.: I'm really sorry if you feel so.

You: I don't feel so, I'm trying to make some sense of what you tell me
You: what does phone's software have to do with you locking ESM?

Sylvia S.: Had been it possible for us to unlock the iPhone, I'd have certainly provide you with the steps to referred to the proper channel.

You: can you unlock it for international use?

Sylvia S.: Yes, the iPhone 5 phone can be unlocked for International use.

You: and how can I do that? i'm not your customer and never was

Sylvia S.: I'm sorry, one should have an active account with us to get the iPhone 5 unlocked for International usage.

You: so basically, you're saying that even with the new legislation you can't unlock iPhone for any kind of use for a none-customer?

Sylvia S.: Yes, you're right. The Sprint iPhones can not be unlocked for domestic usage to use with other service provider.

You: So you ARE violating recent legislation?

Sylvia S.: I wish I could do that for you from my end. The only option for you is to visit the nearest Sprint store to check for the available options.

You: I'm not asking you to do it from your end, I just want to know HOW to do it, 'cause now you're legally obligated to unlock ANY phone, iPhone or Android upon request of your customer or charge a reasonable fee
to a non-customer.

Sylvia S.: I understand your point, however I'm providing you the details that is available with me.

You: But you seem to be saying you REFUSE to unlock iPhone ... and can you provide me with the exemption in the legislation that legally allows you to exclude iPhones from unlocking?

Sylvia S.: I understand that you want the details of the legislation agreement.
Sylvia S.: Please contact our Account services team at 1-888-211-4727 and they will assist you with the details regarding the agreement.

You: I have read the legislation, it's public knowledge, I just don't understand why you refuse to honor it, that's all.

Sylvia S.: I wish I could have unlocked the phone for you.

You: okay thanks, I will check with them and call the number you gave me


What do you guys think? Run around or plain and simple violation of the new legislation?

I just want to sell iPhone now and not deal with Sprint!

Thanks

 

[aristobrat]

This is from the first pages of the PDF that you linked to, dated less than 1 month ago:

Upon adoption, these companies will move quickly to implement these principles, committing to implement three of these principles within three months and the remainder within 12 months.

It also calls these "voluntary industry principles" that these companies have only committed to adopt. They haven't actually adopted them yet, so the clock hasn't even started running, if I'm reading this right. Where do you see this was actually legislated?

Also, FWIW HowardForums.com is the MacRumors of cell phone/carrier stuff.

 

[biv1982]

This is from the first pages of the PDF that you linked to, dated less than 1 month ago:



It also calls these "voluntary industry principles". Where do you see this was actually legislated?

Also, FWIW HowardForums.com is the MacRumors of cell phone/carrier stuff.

Yes, I realize that it's voluntary and may take up to 12 months. However voluntary means they still HAVE to obey by them, they accept them voluntarily that's all. They have to adopt those 6 principles and nothing else, not something their lawyers will write to bypass something like unlocking iOS devices.

According to the girl that chatted with me, they have adopted these principles already, 'cause she had no problems unlocking any Android phone, yet they excluded iOS devices from this voluntary adopted principles.

So I'm wondering if they can do that.

 

[eyoungren]

This is from the first pages of the PDF that you linked to, dated less than 1 month ago:



It also calls these "voluntary industry principles" that these companies have only committed to adopt. They haven't actually adopted them yet, so the clock hasn't even started running, if I'm reading this right. Where do you see this was actually legislated?

Also, FWIW HowardForums.com is the MacRumors of cell phone/carrier stuff.

^^^^Exactly this!

It's not law. It's all voluntary. And the carriers acted on it because by voluntarily agreeing to all of this on their terms they avoided being forced into on the government's terms

You will note some other things as well. Just because Sprint will eventually unlock your phone voluntarily does not mean that your device will work on another carrier. Sprint is CDMA. You can't take your phone to AT&T or T-Mobile. Verizon, while it is CDMA does not use LTE on the same band frequency as Sprint LTE. So, even if you go to Verizon all you'll get from them is 3G.

Lastly, as mentioned. Unlocking was voluntarily agreed to. But NOWHERE in that agreement is ANY mention of the carriers agreeing to ACTIVATE your phone.

Sprint has a policy of NEVER activating any phone that does not have Sprint branding or was not sold by Sprint. So, should someone from Verizon want to unlock their phone and come to Sprint they can do that. But Sprint won't activate their phone. There is nothing forcing them or any of the other carriers to do that.

So, great. You will eventually be able to get your phone unlocked. But what good will that do you if the carrier you want to go to refuses to activate your phone on their network?

----------

Yes, I realize that it's voluntary and may take up to 12 months. However voluntary means they still HAVE to obey by them, they accept them voluntarily that's all. They have to adopt those 6 principles and nothing else, not something their lawyers will write to bypass something like unlocking iOS devices.

According to the girl that chatted with me, they have adopted these principles already, 'cause she had no problems unlocking any Android phone, yet they excluded iOS devices from this voluntary adopted principles.

So I'm wondering if they can do that.

What part of voluntary is confusing you? They have 12 months. They can do whatever they want within those twelve months. They can take up to 11 months and 30 days before they decide to give you what you want.

Just because they decide to allow it for one phone model over another doesn't mean they are violating anything if they have 12 months to implement it.

Sprint has usually allowed a few Android phones to be unlocked, but all of the iPhones that Sprint buys from Apple already have their IMEIs barred from being in the unlock database. The SIMS on these phones are paired with the device and you cannot get service without that specific SIM. Perhaps Sprint is thinking it'll just wait for the iPhone 6 and after 12 months deal with it on a case by case basis for older iPhones.

Who knows. But they aren't violating anything yet.

 

[biv1982]

^^^^Exactly this!

It's not law. It's all voluntary. And the carriers acted on it because by voluntarily agreeing to all of this on their terms they avoided being forced into on the government's terms

You will note some other things as well. Just because Sprint will eventually unlock your phone voluntarily does not mean that your device will work on another carrier. Sprint is CDMA. You can't take your phone to AT&T or T-Mobile. Verizon, while it is CDMA does not use LTE on the same band frequency as Sprint LTE. So, even if you go to Verizon all you'll get from them is 3G.

Lastly, as mentioned. Unlocking was voluntarily agreed to. But NOWHERE in that agreement is ANY mention of the carriers agreeing to ACTIVATE your phone.

Sprint has a policy of NEVER activating any phone that does not have Sprint branding or was not sold by Sprint. So, should someone from Verizon want to unlock their phone and come to Sprint they can do that. But Sprint won't activate their phone. There is nothing forcing them or any of the other carriers to do that.

So, great. You will eventually be able to get your phone unlocked. But what good will that do you if the carrier you want to go to refuses to activate your phone on their network?

Yea, I realize that it won't solve all the problems at once, but I still would be able to activate my iPhone 5 on Virgin Mobile, they use the same CDMA. I could also sell that phone on eBay and international buyers would be able to activate it in their country.
Unless all U.S. carriers will refuse to activate competitor's phones, I can't see a problem. If Sprint won't activate others phones, it's their own problem.

 

[eyoungren]

Yea, I realize that it won't solve all the problems at once, but I still would be able to activate my iPhone 5 on Virgin Mobile, they use the same CDMA. I could also sell that phone on eBay and international buyers would be able to activate it in their country.
Unless all U.S. carriers will refuse to activate competitor's phones, I can't see a problem. If Sprint won't activate others phones, it's their own problem.

If Virgin Mobile activates your phone, great. And this will ease international situations - maybe. I see nothing in the agreement that says the carriers are obligated or legally bound to unlock a phone for a non-customer.

My point is that no one should just think that because the carriers have all agreed to this that they can just take their phone anywhere they please and expect service.

By the way. You do realize that Virgin Mobile is Sprint right? Virgin Mobile and Boost are prepaid and operate on Sprint's network. So does Ting.

So your outrage over the unlock policy (and I get it because it's draconian and stupid) is strange considering that you want to STAY on the Sprint network.

And as another by the way, even if you do go VM at some point you realize you'll be right back on Sprint right? Sprint is merging VM and Boost and relabeling it as Sprint Freedom.

 

[biv1982]

What part of voluntary is confusing you? They have 12 months. They can do whatever they want within those twelve months. They can take up to 11 months and 30 days before they decide to give you what you want.

Just because they decide to allow it for one phone model over another doesn't mean they are violating anything if they have 12 months to implement it.

Sprint has usually allowed a few Android phones to be unlocked, but all of the iPhones that Sprint buys from Apple already have their IMEIs barred from being in the unlock database. The SIMS on these phones are paired with the device and you cannot get service without that specific SIM. Perhaps Sprint is thinking it'll just wait for the iPhone 6 and after 12 months deal with it on a case by case basis for older iPhones.

Who knows. But they aren't violating anything yet.

Well I guess the part of "voluntary" where they either adopt it or not. But IF they adopt it, they can't change it.

Like if You want to adopt my puppy are you going to adopt the puppy that I'm offering you or are you going to ask me to genetically modify it so it would be more to your liking? I mean, if you don't like the puppy, just wait till the Police arrives and forces you to take the puppy, but if you volunteer, you take the puppy in question!

I know they don't have to do anything for the next 12 months, but I do know, if they say they have adopted the policy and will unlock my Android, shouldn't they be obligated to unlock iPhone as well? Where does it say in any of those 6 principles that a carrier can pick and choose which model to unlock and which one to exclude?

 

[aristobrat]

Yes, I realize that it's voluntary and may take up to 12 months. However voluntary means they still HAVE to obey by them, they accept them voluntarily that's all. They have to adopt those 6 principles and nothing else, not something their lawyers will write to bypass something like unlocking iOS devices.

I mention "voluntary adopted", because that's quite a difference from "being legislated". Your thread title mentions legislation.

They give a time line of three-to-twelve months after they adopt these principles.

As of the date of the CTIA PDF that you attached (Dec 12, 2013), the carriers hadn't even adopted them yet. They had only committed to adopt them.

So I guess just give it time. Once you hear that the carriers have actually adopted the principals, then you can start your three month/twelve month clock.

But as of now, it hasn't even been one month since the CTIA announcement that you linked to.

 

[biv1982]

If Virgin Mobile activates your phone, great. And this will ease international situations.

My point is that no one should just think that because the carriers have all agreed to this that they can just take their phone anywhere they please and expect service.

By the way. You do realize that Virgin Mobile is Sprint right? Virgin Mobile and Boost are prepaid and operate on Sprint's network. So does Ting.

So your outrage over the unlock policy (and I get it because it's draconian and stupid) is strange considering that you want to STAY on the Sprint network.

And as another by the way, even if you do go VM at some point you realize you'll be right back on Sprint right? Sprint is merging VM and Boost and relabeling it as Sprint Freedom.

I don't particularly care about Sprint or VM ... I only care about their difference in Prices! $35 on VM vs $60-$70 on Sprint a month. I won't be locking myself into years of contract with VM, so I don't like them I will take my iPhone and go elsewhere. I do want an option to unlock it and sell it on eBay International to get my money back.

My outrage is towards unlock policy and how it's being implemented, I just happen to have a Sprint phone and I contacted them. Maybe someone else on these forums have tried or will try Verizon or AT&T and he/she can post the results here for everyone to see.

 

[eyoungren]

Well I guess the part of "voluntary" where they either adopt it or not. But IF they adopt it, they can't change it.

Like if You want to adopt my puppy are you going to adopt the puppy that I'm offering you or are you going to ask me to genetically modify it so it would be more to your liking? I mean, if you don't like the puppy, just wait till the Police arrives and forces you to take the puppy, but if you volunteer, you take the puppy in question!

I know they don't have to do anything for the next 12 months, but I do know, if they say they have adopted the policy and will unlock my Android, shouldn't they be obligated to unlock iPhone as well? Where does it say in any of those 6 principles that a carrier can pick and choose which model to unlock and which one to exclude?

You are right in the sense that they cannot pick and choose. You are wrong as to when they are forced to do so.

They have twelve months. At the end of those twelve months they have to unlock all phones according to the agreement.

But between now and then there is NOTHING that forces them to do ANYTHING. They can CHOOSE to do so if they wish, but they can also choose to NOT do anything.

If they refuse to do so after twelve months have passed then you'd be justified. Until then there is nothing forcing them to do anything.

Additionally, this is an agreement. If any of them breaks it then it's up to the FCC to legislate them. There are no current laws forcing them to do so and there is no penalty to breaking this agreement. But the THREAT of the FCC starting the ball rolling on legislation is what will force them to honor the agreement WHEN it starts. Furthermore any action by the FCC will require legislation, which takes time to be written, reviewed, edited, voted upon, passed and enacted into law.

Better to do something on your terms than have the terms forced on you from an outside source.

 

[aristobrat]

My outrage is towards unlock policy and how it's being implemented.

Is that because nothing in this voluntary commitment seems to have been implement yet?

Googling around, I see nothing that says any of those carriers have officially adopted the principles as of today.

Have you?

So if they don't want to unlock ANYTHING today, that's fine. If they only want to unlock Android today, that's fine.

 

[biv1982]

You are right in the sense that they cannot pick and choose. You are wrong as to when they are forced to do so.

They have twelve months. At the end of those twelve months they have to unlock all phones according to the agreement.

But between now and then there is NOTHING that forces them to do ANYTHING. They can CHOOSE to do so if they wish, but they can also choose to NOT do anything.

If they refuse to do so after twelve months have passed then you'd be justified. Until then there is nothing forcing them to do anything.

Additionally, this is an agreement. If any of them breaks it then it's up to the FCC to legislate them. There are no current laws forcing them to do so and there is no penalty to breaking this agreement. But the THREAT of the FCC starting the ball rolling on legislation is what will force them to honor the agreement WHEN it starts.

Better to do something on your terms than have the terms force on you from an outside source.

Okay great, I will take that. The reason I contacted them in the first place is to find out if they have adopted the first 3 principles (they have to do it in 3 months) and if not, when to expect it.

But my problem is NOT the time table, it's the LIE they told me. Their representative was speaking to me as if they have already adopted those principles, BUT they have excluded iOS devices from that adoption.

I hope you see what I mean, 'cause I have no problem waiting 3-6-12 months for that, I just don't want us (customers) to call them 12 months later to find out that they will not unlock iPhones even with adopted principles!

 

[aristobrat]

Okay great, I will take that. The reason I contacted them in the first place is to find out if they have adopted the first 3 principles (they have to do it in 3 months) and if not, when to expect it.

FWIW, the only mention of three months I see in the CTIA press release PDF that you linked to was that after adoption, they are committed to implement three of these principles within three months.

I don't see where it says WHICH three principles they have to implement first, and I don't see where it says they only have three months to do the official "adoption".

But my problem is NOT the time table, it's the LIE they told me.

That is crappy, but you aren't the first (or last) person that is going to get incorrect information from a customer service person.

 

[eyoungren]

But my problem is NOT the time table, it's the LIE they told me. Their representative was speaking to me as if they have already adopted those principles, BUT they have excluded iOS devices from that adoption.

Understand that you are dealing with Sprint.

Sprint CSRs are not trained very well, performance is measured by quantity of calls dealt with and surveys completed, not quality or problems solved. The average Sprint CSR works in a hostile, blame everyone else atmosphere and the average turnover for a Sprint CSR is 6 months.

They are not trained well because there is no point. Sprint doesn't want to deal with problems. Educating their CSRs is not a priority. CSRs do not have access to live information and are probably ignorant of the industry trends as well. It's just a job.

So, whatever it takes to get you off the phone or chat is what they will do.

Since this agreement has not even been implemented yet there is no official information about anything that's been communicated to the employee. This isn't official yet, so why give the CSR that info.

Now. In the past there have been certain Android models that Sprint WILL unlock. But the iPhone is not and never has been one of those. So, what you may be seeing is this already existing policy.

If you call Sprint or talk to Sprint with the expectation that you will be lied to and/or treated poorly then Sprint will not dissapoint you and your outrage will be much diminished.

 

[T5BRICK]

Understand that you are dealing with Sprint.

Sprint CSRs are not trained very well, performance is measured by quantity of calls dealt with and surveys completed, not quality or problems solved. The average Sprint CSR works in a hostile, blame everyone else atmosphere and the average turnover for a Sprint CSR is 6 months.

They are not trained well because there is no point. Sprint doesn't want to deal with problems. Educating their CSRs is not a priority. CSRs do not have access to live information and are probably ignorant of the industry trends as well. It's just a job.

So, whatever it takes to get you off the phone or chat is what they will do.

There is a good chance that the CSR you speak with doesn't even work for Sprint, but instead works at a call center that contracts with Sprint to handle their calls.

Of course, they operate under the same rules that you described, quantity over quality. I know this because a member of my family worked at one near where I live, and she handled calls for Sprint for a time.

 

[eyoungren]

There is a good chance that the CSR you speak with doesn't even work for Sprint, but instead works at a call center that contracts with Sprint to handle their calls.

Of course, they operate under the same rules that you described, quantity over quality. I know this because a member of my family worked at one near where I live, and she handled calls for Sprint for a time.

Yeah, that's true. Most people don't get that though, or care if they do realize it. Unfortunately the typical Sprint customer is usually angry by the time they call Sprint and it doesn't matter who or what's on the other end of the phone.

 

[T5BRICK]

Yeah, that's true. Most people don't get that though, or care if they do realize it. Unfortunately the typical Sprint customer is usually angry by the time they call Sprint and it doesn't matter who or what's on the other end of the phone.

OT....But I just noticed your signature. Do you really have a working Quicksilver G4? Those later G4s were awesome! I miss my dual 1.25GHz MDD G4....

 

[Applejuiced]

If you're outraged about them or their policy then do something about it like disconnect from sprint and sell the phone and you're done.
Wondering about their "voluntary policies" or when its going to happen or if or how doesn't accomplish anything.
Put an end to it and move on and get a device that runs on the network you want.

If you call Sprint or talk to Sprint with the expectation that you will be lied to and/or treated poorly then Sprint will not dissapoint you and your outrage will be much diminished.

LMAO I love this above.
This guy must have been a Sprint customer for a while

 

[eyoungren]

OT....But I just noticed your signature. Do you really have a working Quicksilver G4? Those later G4s were awesome! I miss my dual 1.25GHz MDD G4....

Yes I do. It's a 733mhz Quicksilver that was upgraded to 1.2Ghz with a Sonnet upgrade.

I got it third hand, although I have the original bill of sale for it. Traded three iBook G3s and $50 cash for it. Also got the monitor, keyboard, mouse, disks and Apple Pro Speakers with it.

I've upped the ram to 1.5GB (max), installed a second video card (ATI Rage128) and just this Wednesday I got a PC SATA card that I flashed to Mac. When I got the QS I removed the CD-ROM drive and dropped in a DVD Burner (Dual Layer). It also came with the 250mb ZIP drive.

It's got 2 500GB SATA drives, the original 40GB IDE drive and a fourth 150GB IDE drive. Running Leopard 10.5.8.

I've ALWAYS wanted a QS (never had any love for the MDDs). I think it's the most beautiful Mac Apple ever made. I had zero use for the iBooks (don't really care for iBooks) but the seller loves them. So it worked out for both of us.

 

[T5BRICK]

Yes I do. It's a 733mhz Quicksilver that was upgraded to 1.2Ghz with a Sonnet upgrade.

I got it third hand, although I have the original bill of sale for it. Traded three iBook G3s and $50 cash for it. Also got the monitor, keyboard, mouse, disks and Apple Pro Speakers with it.

I've upped the ram to 1.5GB (max), installed a second video card (ATI Rage128) and just this Wednesday I got a PC SATA card that I flashed to Mac. When I got it I removed the CD-ROM drive and dropped in a DVD Burner (Dual Layer). It also came with the 250mb ZIP drive.

It's got 2 500GB SATA drives, the original 40GB IDE drive and a fourth 150GB IDE drive. Running Leopard 10.5.8.

I've ALWAYS wanted a QS. I think it's the most beautiful Mac Apple ever made. I had zero use for the iBooks (don't really care for iBooks) but the seller loves them. So it worked out for both of us.

That is just plain awesome. I am currently Mac-less, I miss having one around.

 

[eyoungren]

That is just plain awesome. I am currently Mac-less, I miss having one around.

Yeah, it's nice. My youngest Mac though is eight years old and I just had one 17" PowerBook die on me a week ago. In the market for a new logicboard for it if I can find one at a decent price. Sellers are starting to get wise to the fact that people like me troll eBay looking for "broken" Macs and parts and have been increasing prices.

Still, the PowerPC Macs are still much cheaper than the Intel Macs. Last longer too!