iPhone 8/Plus Is iCloud the main culprit when it comes to iPhone privacy?

[AMSOS]

In light of Apple's declaration of commencing with mass surveillance of its phones, I am trying to figure out how iOS actually works in the background.

I believe if you switch off iCloud Photos, your phone will not be targeted by Apple. I looked around a bit and read that iPhones have been broken into by the authorities using vulnerabilities in iCloud. So, is using the cloud the main source of problem related to privacy?

Moving forward, if I completely switch off iCloud services on my iPhone (even when I go to iOS 15) will I have a much higher level of privacy?

Is there a difference in how apps are handled? e.g. using the Notes app (say) through iCloud is safer, but Photo and iMessages are at greater risk of being compromised?

I'd appreciate other comments about how you see yourself being able to (or not) continue using iOS while maintaining a level of privacy acceptable to you.

Thanks!

 

[Shirasaki]

Moving forward, if I completely switch off iCloud services on my iPhone (even when I go to iOS 15) will I have a much higher level of privacy?

No. You will not have much higher level of privacy.
I would like to go so far as to say Internet accelerates the erosion of privacy, and there is no practical way to achieve ultimate privacy even if you try to live in the wood. But for starters, stopping using smartphones can definitely boost privacy drastically as the info those devices will get from you is not much to begin with.
Also, Apple today can say "turn off iCloud Photo and you will not be targeted". But remember, thumbnails of your photo will be generated anyways and THOSE could be uploaded silently in the background. They don't take up much space and usually don't eat away much data while providing enough resolution for analysis. If you ever wonder how it looks like, turn on optimized storage in photos on your iOS device, and you will see. I'd say they are pretty good for lots of practical purposes minus identifying small stuff in details.

 

[Shirasaki]

In case you are wondering, this is what a "low-res photo" would look like for "optimized storage" (you can compare it with Photos app elements and texts), and you definitely can tell major features in the photo (I zoomed in a bit for more dramatic effect).

 

[ian87w]

In light of Apple's declaration of commencing with mass surveillance of its phones, I am trying to figure out how iOS actually works in the background.

I believe if you switch off iCloud Photos, your phone will not be targeted by Apple. I looked around a bit and read that iPhones have been broken into by the authorities using vulnerabilities in iCloud. So, is using the cloud the main source of problem related to privacy?

Moving forward, if I completely switch off iCloud services on my iPhone (even when I go to iOS 15) will I have a much higher level of privacy?

Is there a difference in how apps are handled? e.g. using the Notes app (say) through iCloud is safer, but Photo and iMessages are at greater risk of being compromised?

I'd appreciate other comments about how you see yourself being able to (or not) continue using iOS while maintaining a level of privacy acceptable to you.

Thanks!

If we really generalize things, anything connected to the internet would have vulnerabilities and risks. Thus some critical systems are best left offline, not connected to any network.

As for the CSAM stuff, basically the positive vouchers review etc will happen when you are uploading to iCloud Photos. Thing is, iCloud Photos are turned on by default whenever you sign on to iCloud on your iPhone. Yes, presumably the scanning thing would stop if you turn off iCloud Photos. This will need to be scrutinized and verified once iOS15 is rolled out.

If you turn off iCloud completely, your level of privacy will be "better" obviously. But then you won't be able to use some useful features that do involve tracking, such as Find My.

Right now, if your concern is the CSAM scanning stuff, what you can do is not upgrade your device to iOS15. Apple has not indicated whether they will backport this feature to older versions of iOS (many iPhones out there stuck on iOS12).

My level of acceptable privacy is basically what Steve Jobs said a while back. Privacy should be the default, and anything should be opt-in, ask the user, ask them every single time, in simple words. This is why I love the permission system of iOS compared to the old way of Android. Modern Android since then has copied Apple's model. I like Apple's limit tracking thing for 3rd party apps. But this sudden move to force mass scanning worldwide by enforcing US-centric policy into the firmware of global device, is just not the right way. Apple doesn't ask for my permission. They just shoehorn it into the OS, even if I'm not a US citizen. I basically don't have a choice, other than skipping iOS15 or stop using iPhone.

Here's the video of Steve Jobs on privacy. I feel that many current Apple execs have forgotten this.

 

[KaliYoni]

My view on mobile phones is that there is no privacy. Every entity involved, including handset makers, carriers, app developers, accessory makers, and websites, tracks users in some way.

So, the only way to manage your privacy is to compartmentalize your usage and data as much as you can. For example, don't do sensitive or confidential activities on your least private device (say, the mobile phone you carry everywhere). Restrict these activities to a device that isn't constantly connected to the Internet, such as a Wi-Fi tablet, or to a desktop computer where you can have much more control over connections, software, and storage.

 

[Apple_Robert]

If you don't use any iCloud services, Apple won't have the keys to unlock any of your data. That, in and of itself will make you more secure (in regards to Apple services usage) than someone who uses iCloud services. What you need to really be cognizant of is making sure you have the toggles switched off that you mean to have switched off. You also need to make sure you don't blindly install any iOS updates without reading the user agreement first.

Any other data that is not from iCloud services should be encrypted in a folder using Boxcryptor and Cryptomator. Otherwise, said data can be accessed by Apple and others.

 

[now i see it]

Anything you've got stored in iCloud, apple willingly hands it over to law enforcement when they're served a warrant. It happens every day, thousands of times a year. It's a fact Apple doesn't hide and they publicly state the stats every year. It's jaw dropping how many warrants they get served and how much data they hand over.

An iCloud backup is the worst. Every single thing on a backup can be cloned to another phone and can then be picked through bit by bit just as if they've got your phone in their hands.
If someone is paranoid about law enforcement - stay the hell away from iCloud.

 

[0128672]

It's jaw dropping how many warrants they get served and how much data they hand over.

It would be interesting to read about what you're saying concerning volume of warrants Apple is served. Could you provide a link with this "jaw dropping" data?

 

[schneeland]

Here's the video of Steve Jobs on privacy. I feel that many current Apple execs have forgotten this.

Thanks for sharing! I don't think Steve got everything right and Tim got everything wrong, but this makes me miss the gold old "Steve days". His ability to deliver a succinct answer that is/was indeed reassuring for customers is thoroughly missed for sure.

And regarding the OP's question: I can second what @Apple_Robert mentioned. I haven't used Boxcryptor in a while, but Cryptomator is fairly easy to use and if I got that correctly, the new version will fully integrate with the files app, so securely syncing files between your PC/Mac and your mobile devices should not give you too much of a headache.

 

[now i see it]

It would be interesting to read about what you're saying concerning volume of warrants Apple is served. Could you provide a link with this "jaw dropping" data?

It's published every year in their "transparency" report.

Explanation:

Apple Issues First Transparency Report, Includes "Warrant Canary"

On Tuesday, yet another one of the nine companies originally implicated in the PRISM program released its first transparency report. Apple joins the ranks of Google, Yahoo, and Facebook, among others that have issued reports that detail the number of requests the companies receive from...

www.eff.org

2020 Report: (28,286 requests. 171,368 devices)

https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/pdf/requests-2020-H1-en.pdf

 

[0128672]

It's published every year in their "transparency" report.

Thanks for posting that. I've only recently learned about warrant canaries, and am glad to see that Apple is participating.

 

[cynics]

If you don't use any iCloud services, Apple won't have the keys to unlock any of your data. That, in and of itself will make you more secure (in regards to Apple services usage) than someone who uses iCloud services. What you need to really be cognizant of is making sure you have the toggles switched off that you mean to have switched off. You also need to make sure you don't blindly install any iOS updates without reading the user agreement first.

Any other data that is not from iCloud services should be encrypted in a folder using Boxcryptor and Cryptomator. Otherwise, said data can be accessed by Apple and others.

Do you really believe flipping a virtual switch will protect you from something if they really wanted it? Those toggles alone are 1 menu passed the picture you chose for your AppleID, they've conveniently put it on iCloud.com for your if you want to check it out..

iCloud is just another way of saving Apple servers.

Don't forget all the iCloud services that don't have toggles either. Weather for example sends your location to Apple so you can see local report. Spotlight suggestions is Apple server based. All the 1st party apps interact with Apple servers directly. Downloading 3rd party apps has to be done through Apple servers. All 3rd party apps you interact with are interacting with Apple servers. Forwarding messages to other devices are routed through Apple. Activation and deactivation have dedicated Apple server. Every single notification your iPhone gets come from Apples notification servers and you interacting with it lets them know you read it so they can remove it from your other Apple devices. With Find my Network (you can turn that off) your device can be located with no network connection.

The OS and all the API's 3rd party devs use are Apples the program they write the app on is made by Apple and the computer the compiled it on was made by Apple. So you get another browser, you are just using WebKit on a different browser. Use a different video player, AVkit. Boxcryptor is using CloudKit since it only works in Files and so is Cryptomator although it doesn't look like Cryptomator is required to be stored online like Box. Boxcryptor, they even link directly to Apples webpage for their API's and Framework.



Look I completely respect your choice and right to privacy but an iPhone but its like getting McDonalds with a diet coke because you are on a diet. Not gonna help...Only difference between you and I is I know I'm doomed.

 

[AMSOS]

No. You will not have much higher level of privacy.
I would like to go so far as to say Internet accelerates the erosion of privacy, and there is no practical way to achieve ultimate privacy even if you try to live in the wood. But for starters, stopping using smartphones can definitely boost privacy drastically as the info those devices will get from you is not much to begin with.
Also, Apple today can say "turn off iCloud Photo and you will not be targeted". But remember, thumbnails of your photo will be generated anyways and THOSE could be uploaded silently in the background. They don't take up much space and usually don't eat away much data while providing enough resolution for analysis. If you ever wonder how it looks like, turn on optimized storage in photos on your iOS device, and you will see. I'd say they are pretty good for lots of practical purposes minus identifying small stuff in details.

Of course, I know that. Thing is we don't really have an alternative to the internet. Unfortunately, stopping to use smartphones is not a privilege I have.
This thing about thumbnails is interesting. From what you're saying I gather it something that MAY happen, and if it does it will be behind our backs.
But, on the whole, if I stop using iCloud Photos, is it safe to say that my phone will not be scanned (as things stand today)?

 

[AMSOS]

If we really generalize things, anything connected to the internet would have vulnerabilities and risks. Thus some critical systems are best left offline, not connected to any network.

Well, my threat level is certainly much lower, and I don't think I can be permanently disconnected from the internet.

If you turn off iCloud completely, your level of privacy will be "better" obviously. But then you won't be able to use some useful features that do involve tracking, such as Find My.

I always had Find My turned on. Until iOS 14 (or so) when every time I reconnected to WiFi it would take my location
It was unacceptable and irritating to see. I made a decision and decided to just turn off Find My. Now each and every location related toggle in Privacy is switched off.
While on the subject of iCloud features I use, how will disabling it effect my use of Notes sync?
Do I need to disable only iCloud Photos, or all apps relying on iCloud (e.g. Notes, Calendar, Reminders)?
I use the Notes app all the time. It's really convenient to jot down to do lists, or my thoughts while I am on the move, and then see these on my laptop later.
Similarly, it's quite useful to simply drop a file I am reading on my laptop into iCloud Drive and then pick it up on my phone.

My level of acceptable privacy is basically what Steve Jobs said a while back. Privacy should be the default, and anything should be opt-in, ask the user, ask them every single time, in simple words. This is why I love the permission system of iOS compared to the old way of Android. Modern Android since then has copied Apple's model. I like Apple's limit tracking thing for 3rd party apps. But this sudden move to force mass scanning worldwide by enforcing US-centric policy into the firmware of global device, is just not the right way. Apple doesn't ask for my permission. They just shoehorn it into the OS, even if I'm not a US citizen. I basically don't have a choice, other than skipping iOS15 or stop using iPhone.

Well said!

 

[AMSOS]

My view on mobile phones is that there is no privacy. Every entity involved, including handset makers, carriers, app developers, accessory makers, and websites, tracks users in some way.

So, the only way to manage your privacy is to compartmentalize your usage and data as much as you can. For example, don't do sensitive or confidential activities on your least private device (say, the mobile phone you carry everywhere). Restrict these activities to a device that isn't constantly connected to the Internet, such as a Wi-Fi tablet, or to a desktop computer where you can have much more control over connections, software, and storage.

While this sounds like a lot to manage, I do see why you say this. And going by the direction in which things are moving something like this would seem to be what we need to do.
That said, my threat level isn't particularly high, and looking at this I feel like it's too much to do, Lol!
I have to say I am also looking for alternatives and the Android Calyx OS with its "De-Googled" approach interests me quite a bit. These people are not commercial. Do you think such initiatives too are quietly involved in some kind of tracking?

 

[AMSOS]

If you don't use any iCloud services, Apple won't have the keys to unlock any of your data. That, in and of itself will make you more secure (in regards to Apple services usage) than someone who uses iCloud services. What you need to really be cognizant of is making sure you have the toggles switched off that you mean to have switched off. You also need to make sure you don't blindly install any iOS updates without reading the user agreement first.

Any other data that is not from iCloud services should be encrypted in a folder using Boxcryptor and Cryptomator. Otherwise, said data can be accessed by Apple and others.

Since everything seems to be boiling down to iCloud, let me make sure I get this right

As I understand there are three types of cloud usage on the iPhone--

a) I can backup the entire phone using iCloud Backup.
b) I can use the cloud to sync different apps e.g. I use Notes and Calendars/Reminders a lot.
c) I can use only iCloud Drive to sync files between my laptop and phone.

Do I need to switch all three off? Or, maybe using only iCloud Drive is not such an issue?

If the cloud is off, how will Apple see other data on my phone? e.g. files stored, pictures. What about Signal messenger texts?

Even if I use Boxcryptor that'll still be on the phone. So, if Apple can still see the above with cloud switched off, won't it also be able to look into Boxcryptor content?

Thanks!

 

[Shirasaki]

Of course, I know that. Thing is we don't really have an alternative to the internet. Unfortunately, stopping to use smartphones is not a privilege I have.
This thing about thumbnails is interesting. From what you're saying I gather it something that MAY happen, and if it does it will be behind our backs.
But, on the whole, if I stop using iCloud Photos, is it safe to say that my phone will not be scanned (as things stand today)?

If Apple's claim is anything that you think you can trust, then sure. Turn off iCloud Photos.
As to what will happen later? Time will tell.

 

[timeconsumer]

If Apple's claim is anything that you think you can trust, then sure. Turn off iCloud Photos.
As to what will happen later? Time will tell.

This is what I'm struggling with. if I turn off everything iCloud related, that code is still built in to the OS and could be activated at any time... We're just supposed to trust Apple that it won't happen...

 

[cynics]

Anything you've got stored in iCloud, apple willingly hands it over to law enforcement when they're served a warrant. It happens every day, thousands of times a year. It's a fact Apple doesn't hide and they publicly state the stats every year. It's jaw dropping how many warrants they get served and how much data they hand over.

An iCloud backup is the worst. Every single thing on a backup can be cloned to another phone and can then be picked through bit by bit just as if they've got your phone in their hands.
If someone is paranoid about law enforcement - stay the hell away from iCloud.

I feel like this surprises you. Maybe I'm just wording your statement out of context in my head.

Maybe you are just confused or something. If a government agent hands an Apple employee a warrant then they are being forced to UNWILLINGLY do something. See the difference? If they were willingly doing something they wouldn't need the threat of fines and potential jail time for criminal obstruction to motivate them.

Second, an affidavits needs to present a judge with enough evidence to legitimately be able to establish 'probable cause' for the judge to issue a search warrant. Without that they are breaking the 4th amendment and oppressing someones constitutional rights will end very poorly for the prosecutor. Point is why would Apple want to protect that person? If your house is being searched by law enforcement with a warrant, its because there is an incredibly high chance you are guilty of a crime. They are there looking for the smoking gun.

Third, Apple will prepare 'anything' you've got stored in iCloud but they aren't giving you 'EVERYTHING'. The search warrant will state what they are looking for, Apple will likely have the prepared beforehand. That is specifically mentioned in that report you posted.

This is the government request based on legal processes from the United States from the report you posted.

I did not include the charts where the police called looking for a stolen/lost phone with the victim and need location data was used an attempt to return a device back to its rightful owner. I also left out emergencies, thats when government agencies contact Apple in an attempt to locate someone that is in trouble or something along those lines.

Thats 11,123 government request they that Apple was literally forced to comply with.

The first row is for device recovery which is pointless because Apple states this in their guidelines to government agencies.


The the police will need to convince the owner to unlock it.

The second row is for financial identifiers which is used most commonly in cases where someone committed credit card fraud or something.

So finally that leaves us with 5,871 suspected (at the time) criminals that Apple was court order to hand over evidence against that may have included personal data they didn't want to share.

I'm not sure what is more jaw dropping, that Apple was ordered to pull 5,871 users account data out of the 115,000,000 iPhone users in the USA. Or the fact that many people here probably think other businesses aren't in the same position.

Apple says to law enforcement agencies they will contact you personally if the government gets ordered to pull your data. They also say they will only hold onto data when requested and they can not get data back that is deleted. AKA if you get all call from Apple delete everything, photos and all. Unless you aren't a criminal....Plus it appears they try to retain all your data and just relay information unless ordered otherwise.





This stuff is in Apples guidelines for law enforcement.

https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/law-enforcement-guidelines-us.pdf

I sound like a huge Apple apologist but there are a lot of people that are upset that Apple isn't just breaking the law....for the sake of criminals...I know I know slippery slope. I also don't want to sound like one of those people that says "if you don't have nothing to hide you don't have nothing to worry about". But at a certain level that is true. Some people here sound like the have an entire camera roll filled with illegal photos of minors or them dressing in drag. And if you do have something potentially illegal on your phone/icloud maybe you should quietly address that situation rather then stomping around screaming from the rooftops you are going to make yourself a 1200 dollar 'Feature Phone'. They can read my text!! So can the guy next to you on the bus.

 

[MindYourMind]

Not too long ago a said somewhere here on MR that privacy has everything to do with freedom and I still see it that way. But what is freedom? And what defines us as free human beings? Is freedom privacy dependent?

Like all of us, I do have preferences regarding privacy. For example, I would have saluted Apple if they would have made CSAM opt-in. But they didn’t. Yet I am still fine and will continu to enjoy my iPhone on iOS 15 with iCloud Photo switched on.

So what would I see as my main source of problems related to privacy, if I had them? A lack of detachment from the privacy preferences I have.

 

[k27]

Moving forward, if I completely switch off iCloud services on my iPhone (even when I go to iOS 15) will I have a much higher level of privacy?

Why did you turn on iCloud at all?

 

[The Game 161]

I will certainly continue to use iCloud. My mindset is there’s no such thing as privacy on phones or internet in general.I use what I prefer and not worry about what I can’t control.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Since everything seems to be boiling down to iCloud, let me make sure I get this right

As I understand there are three types of cloud usage on the iPhone--

a) I can backup the entire phone using iCloud Backup.
b) I can use the cloud to sync different apps e.g. I use Notes and Calendars/Reminders a lot.
c) I can use only iCloud Drive to sync files between my laptop and phone.

Do I need to switch all three off? Or, maybe using only iCloud Drive is not such an issue?

If the cloud is off, how will Apple see other data on my phone? e.g. files stored, pictures. What about Signal messenger texts?

Even if I use Boxcryptor that'll still be on the phone. So, if Apple can still see the above with cloud switched off, won't it also be able to look into Boxcryptor content?

Thanks!

If you turn off iCloud Photos, no scanning will be done on your phone. Who knows what will happen with Apple later on as that could change.

Outside of health data and keychain, any iCloud service you chose to keep turned on (Notes, Calendar and Reminders) Apple will have access to.

If iCloud is completely turned off, Apple cannot see what is on your device nor do they have access to what is on your phone.

My comment about Boxcryptor or Cryptomator pertained to storing personal files in the Cloud. If you store files in a Box or Cryptomator folder in the Cloud, Apple won't be able to see or access what is in that enctyptyed folder.

In my opinion, it is best to keep iCloud turned off, unless you don't care if Apple can access Calendar, Notes, or Reminder data.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Do you really believe flipping a virtual switch will protect you from something if they really wanted it? Those toggles alone are 1 menu passed the picture you chose for your AppleID, they've conveniently put it on iCloud.com for your if you want to check it out..

iCloud is just another way of saving Apple servers.

Don't forget all the iCloud services that don't have toggles either. Weather for example sends your location to Apple so you can see local report. Spotlight suggestions is Apple server based. All the 1st party apps interact with Apple servers directly. Downloading 3rd party apps has to be done through Apple servers. All 3rd party apps you interact with are interacting with Apple servers. Forwarding messages to other devices are routed through Apple. Activation and deactivation have dedicated Apple server. Every single notification your iPhone gets come from Apples notification servers and you interacting with it lets them know you read it so they can remove it from your other Apple devices. With Find my Network (you can turn that off) your device can be located with no network connection.

The OS and all the API's 3rd party devs use are Apples the program they write the app on is made by Apple and the computer the compiled it on was made by Apple. So you get another browser, you are just using WebKit on a different browser. Use a different video player, AVkit. Boxcryptor is using CloudKit since it only works in Files and so is Cryptomator although it doesn't look like Cryptomator is required to be stored online like Box. Boxcryptor, they even link directly to Apples webpage for their API's and Framework.

View attachment 1818867

Look I completely respect your choice and right to privacy but an iPhone but its like getting McDonalds with a diet coke because you are on a diet. Not gonna help...Only difference between you and I is I know I'm doomed.

I am not expecting 100% privacy on the iPhone or any phone for that matter when using it for more than a dumb phone. I believe I need to exercise the options I can to try and keep myself more secure. If we find out that turning off the toggle for iCloud photos doesn't stop scanning on the device when Apple said it does, then that will be time to take legal action.

 

[mw360]

In light of Apple's declaration of commencing with mass surveillance of its phones, I am trying to figure out how iOS actually works in the background.

I believe if you switch off iCloud Photos, your phone will not be targeted by Apple. I looked around a bit and read that iPhones have been broken into by the authorities using vulnerabilities in iCloud. So, is using the cloud the main source of problem related to privacy?

If you don't attempt to upload a photo to iCloud, CSAM detection won't do anything and can't do anything. The process that runs on your phone can't see the result of the hash match. Only iCloud servers can interpret the result of what happened on your phone.

Moving forward, if I completely switch off iCloud services on my iPhone (even when I go to iOS 15) will I have a much higher level of privacy?

Yes. iCloud Photos, iCould Backups, and server other features are either stored in the clear, or Apple has the keys to decrypt them if they want to or are pressured to.

Is there a difference in how apps are handled? e.g. using the Notes app (say) through iCloud is safer, but Photo and iMessages are at greater risk of being compromised?

iMessage is safe because Apple cannot know the contents of the messages. I believe Notes are not because some of them are stored on an IMAP server and those are generally not encrypted. All of your iCloud email is stored on IMAP and is not encrypted.

I'd appreciate other comments about how you see yourself being able to (or not) continue using iOS while maintaining a level of privacy acceptable to you.

Thanks!

You should take recent developments to mean iCloud will get safer over time, not less safe. Everything in the CSAM detection feature is already possible, plus much, much more on Apple's servers without any oversight. There is literally no point to the CSAM detection feature unless Apple plans to deny itself access to your iCloud Photos at some point in the future.

On the other hand if you no longer trust Apple (and what I'm saying here is based on their claims) then you shouldn't use iOS. Your phone already scans almost everything you do. Spotlight scans your files, Photos scans for faces and other features, Autocorrect scans every word you write, Safari scans every website you download. All those things have a stated benign purpose, but that doesn't mean they can't also be used maliciously. If you think Apple have dishonest intent, and you believe they have the ability to monitor you in ways they aren't admitting to without detection by researchers, then you need to go elsewhere because there is no way to prove a negative.