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2aw

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Original poster
Apr 27, 2023
58
23
I just read this article: https://lowendmac.com/2018/a-week-in-the-modern-world-with-a-powerpc-mac/

The author used a PowerBook G4 at 1.67 Ghz with 2 GB of RAM and a 256 GB SSD, and he said 10.4-Fox was still SLOW. He was single-tasking too.

And his YouTube was slow too.

How come he had the above problems? Can someone do a deep dive and suggest some solutions?

1. Is it the CPU's fault? (Would getting a G5 help?)
2. Is it the 2 GB RAM's fault? (Would getting more RAM help? How much is enough for 10.4-Fox? 4 GB, 8 GB, 16 GB? What does your experience say?)
3. Is it 10.4-Fox's fault? Is the software badly written and badly optimized?
4. How come his YouTube was slow? I assume he was using TenFiveTube? (Is normal Youtube.com even viewable on a PPC?)

What do you experts think? And are the article's author outcomes good for most users? Are these problems what everyday PPC users have to put up with?
 
You can't expect hardware from 2005 to perform at 2023 hardware speeds.

Most Macs can do the internet in some capacity but you have to be realistic and accept the speed restrictions - that's also part of the fun, making the most of your vintage hardware.

It also depends on the sites you visit obviously - some websites are beyond the reach of PowerPCs now but if you never visited them in the first place, you'll never miss them.

I've done plenty of videos of PowerPCs coping with the modern internet, this is just one:

 
I just read this article: https://lowendmac.com/2018/a-week-in-the-modern-world-with-a-powerpc-mac/

The author used a PowerBook G4 at 1.67 Ghz with 2 GB of RAM and a 256 GB SSD, and he said 10.4-Fox was still SLOW. He was single-tasking too.

And his YouTube was slow too.

How come he had the above problems? Can someone do a deep dive and suggest some solutions?

1. Is it the CPU's fault? (Would getting a G5 help?)
2. Is it the 2 GB RAM's fault? (Would getting more RAM help? How much is enough for 10.4-Fox? 4 GB, 8 GB, 16 GB? What does your experience say?)
3. Is it 10.4-Fox's fault? Is the software badly written and badly optimized?
4. How come his YouTube was slow? I assume he was using TenFiveTube? (Is normal Youtube.com even viewable on a PPC?)

What do you experts think? And are the article's author outcomes good for most users? Are these problems what everyday PPC users have to put up with?

1) What @Dronecatcher said.

2) At most, sort of, but only in matters when one is dealing with a web app, in-browser (something like Discord, which unfortunately does not run on older browsers due to the minimum standard for Javascript/XHR of many ‘modern” web sites), in which the in-browser demands are placed on the web browser’s computer (rather than on the remote server’s end). In plain terms, such web sites (YouTube is one) are effectively initializing and loading their remote application on your local computer each time you use their site. These sites expect users to be running current-ish hardware, which will initialize and launch more quickly than a 2005-era Mac. So on this, it’s less a matter of RAM and more a matter of processing power.

3) Somewhat. First, best to update to the latest InterwebPPC (on the Garden and Archive-dot-org). In addition, you will want to make browser optimizations (several of which can be picked up here (and glaincing over the instructions on the first post in that link’s thread).

4) YT is slow because YT, as with many modern, in-browser “apps”, relies on latest-release JS/XHR, and such sites do a terrible job at “degrading gracefully” for older browsers and older hardware.

Until a few years ago (and by “few”, I mean closer to ten years ago, not three years ago), web site developers followed a tacit understanding, derived from the early days of web development, that a web site should still be able to render fairly similarly irrespective of system/OS/browser the end user was accessing the site.

This began to change with more proprietary standards which were brought in by major “apps” which strive to distinguish themselves as having a “killer” feature which no other competitor has. To lesser extent, newer browser standards entered the picture and web developers to come of age during the implementing of those new standards lacked that “graceful degredation” forethought/hindsight to include in their web development.

Consequently, legacy browsers, whether on current or old hardware, will not render some features properly on those web sites which ignore “graceful degradation” as a development objective. A good example of this in action is opening the instructions for an iFixit guide: no PowerPC Mozilla browser, not even InterwebPPC, will be able to render the XHR-based page code which loads the page as one scrolls, leaving many of the images as grey placeholders.

5) That LowEndMac blog entry is five years old. One can still use their late PowerPC Mac with, say, Leopard, and a browser with the latest security updates, such as InterwebPPC, but while the security side is being maintained, the feature side is not and can’t really be — not on the old bones of, say, OSX Leopard.
 
I just read this article: https://lowendmac.com/2018/a-week-in-the-modern-world-with-a-powerpc-mac/

The author used a PowerBook G4 at 1.67 Ghz with 2 GB of RAM and a 256 GB SSD, and he said 10.4-Fox was still SLOW. He was single-tasking too.

And his YouTube was slow too.

How come he had the above problems? Can someone do a deep dive and suggest some solutions?

1. Is it the CPU's fault? (Would getting a G5 help?)
2. Is it the 2 GB RAM's fault? (Would getting more RAM help? How much is enough for 10.4-Fox? 4 GB, 8 GB, 16 GB? What does your experience say?)
3. Is it 10.4-Fox's fault? Is the software badly written and badly optimized?
4. How come his YouTube was slow? I assume he was using TenFiveTube? (Is normal Youtube.com even viewable on a PPC?)

What do you experts think? And are the article's author outcomes good for most users? Are these problems what everyday PPC users have to put up with?
I have a question for you.

How new to PowerPC are you?

All the questions you are asking is stuff LONG covered here. Your thread title. '…still not good enough…' suggests that PowerPC is supposed to be good enough at some point. I'm curious why you think that when the modern web continues to make PowerPC less and less 'good enough'.

If you're new to PowerPC, meaning you've seen these Macs and started to 'collect' them then I totally understand. Anything else and I have to wonder how big the rock is that you've been living under for the last 17 years. ;)
 
Ha ha...may as well ask ChatGPT :D

Screen Shot 2023-05-03 at 12.10.34.png
 
Pretty new, I haven't even bought one yet.
Gotcha. Makes sense now.

Note, these Macs are never going to be 'good enough' for the modern web. They had their time, back when the web was less complicated. At the time I bailed on PowerPC for daily use I was using a Quad G5, the most powerful PowerPC Mac Apple made - and even with all my workarounds I was starting to struggle. That was 2020. It's only gotten worse.

It's not over yet, still plenty of life. App standards still allow PowerPC to be relevant. But doing things with these old Macs that you may be used to doing with a modern Mac/PC require patience, time and workarounds.
 
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It's not that PPC isn't good enough, it's that the modern web is friggin' terrible. :)
Well, there is that.

Ultimately, it would have been nice for PowerPC to be coded to use the GPU for web graphic processing tasks, rather than leave it to the CPU. But Apple and other manufacturers chose to simply use more powerful CPU processors instead. PowerPC would have been in the game much longer, especially with the aftermarket flashed graphic cards that became available later.
 
Ultimately, it would have been nice for PowerPC to be coded to use the GPU for web graphic processing tasks, rather than leave it to the CPU. But Apple and other manufacturers chose to simply use more powerful CPU processors instead. PowerPC would have been in the game much longer, especially with the aftermarket flashed graphic cards that became available later.
The newest GPUs that you can use on OS X 10.4/10.5 on PPC are ATI Radeon X1900 and Nvidia GeForce 7800, released 2006. I wonder how much they’d have improved “the web experience”.
 
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Well, there is that.

Ultimately, it would have been nice for PowerPC to be coded to use the GPU for web graphic processing tasks, rather than leave it to the CPU. But Apple and other manufacturers chose to simply use more powerful CPU processors instead. PowerPC would have been in the game much longer, especially with the aftermarket flashed graphic cards that became available later.

I realize I'm tilting at windmills here, but as a vintage computer guy I've always hated how bloated the web experience has become. I do occasionally watch a youtube video, but the vast majority of my web browsing is essentially the consumption of text and a few pictures. Ads, trackers, overzealous design - for every processor cycle needed to actually deliver the content I'm trying to see, there are countless others that exist only to extract revenue from clicks.

Yes, I'm a luddite! :D
 
I realize I'm tilting at windmills here, but as a vintage computer guy I've always hated how bloated the web experience has become. I do occasionally watch a youtube video, but the vast majority of my web browsing is essentially the consumption of text and a few pictures. Ads, trackers, overzealous design - for every processor cycle needed to actually deliver the content I'm trying to see, there are countless others that exist only to extract revenue from clicks.

Yes, I'm a luddite! :D
The response to sloppy code, bloated sites, trackers etc, was increased CPU power. Basically, just power through it all. It meant coders didn't have to write streamlined code.

Cue all the browser addon/extension to kill ads, then to kill javascript, then to kill trackers. For myself, I don't browse in my primary browser (Vivaldi) without uMatrix installed.

With PowerPC I did the very best I could with about:config tweaks in T4Fx - but in the end (which I knew was coming) it wasn't enough.

I still keep my hand in here though because for other things PowerPC is still very much viable.
 
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