Is my iMac Pro data forever lost?

[Turnpike]

So back when I switched to Apple for my work I replaced a dozen computers over time, all different ones that I used for different projects, etc. so I had half dozen 27" iMacs. I eventually got a 2017 iMac PRO that was refurbished back when they were still pretty new, and had used that as both a work and personal computer, saving tons of stuff to it. At the time, I still didn't understand Time Machine, and thought that using a 2TB external SSD as my boot drive was a form of super-careful operating procedure because should anything happen on my iMac Pro, I could just plug that external SSD into another Mac and either boot from it or pull the files from it (in a worst case scenario).

Well it turns out one day my iMac Pro quit. I left to get some water, came back and it was off. I often ran a zillion tabs open, it was warm sometimes, but I don't remember ever hearing the fans go or anything. But I couldn't get anything to power on, or show even any evidence that it was getting power. Someone on here a long time ago told me that my external hard drive is likely encrypted by default to this logic board (an iMac PRO feature only, no other iMacs have this by default) and that if I can't get it fixed, I likely lost whatever was on the hard drive.

I brought it to Apple, they said the power source is the first thing to try, they swapped it, still super dead, and that the next thing to change is the logic board (which would make it like a new computer, new serial # and everything, which defeats the purpose) so I said to stop there.

Is this encrypted-by-default-on-iMac-Pro thing real? Is this the end of everything I had on those drives? If anyone has any suggestions or input on this, let me know. I'd love to fix the iMac Pro, even at a cost, but my priority right now is being able to recover the info on the external hard drive. I plugged it into other iMacs with the same version OS and they don't even recognize the drive.

Thanks in advance for anything you might be able to share.

 

[Terraaustralis]

So you have a working external boot drive?
Just reconnect to another Intel Mac and apply the passwords necessary upon request to get past encryption and you will have no problem using the external data source.

When TM is set up, the user is asked to choose and name a drive, choose to encrypt or not to encrypt. Encryption is on by default and must be deliberately switched off. Encryption default is not a special Mac Pro feature; it is a standard TM disk selection procedure on all OSX since inception. I switch encryption off because it slows TM incredibly and costs disk space. I have no security concerns in my situation.

That said, encrypted data can be also be recovered via Recovery, (Command R at startup). Follow these recovery options: https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/mac-help/mchl338cf9a8/mac

As to fixing the 2017 MacPro, it is a cost benefit issue.
1. Buying a replacement Motherboard from Apple will cost a lot, assuming Apple have old stock available. Unless you intend upgrading yourself you must pay a technician to do the upgrade. A better option is buying a used 2017 - why not buy a later - 2019 Intel iMacPro from Ebay or from the used/refurbished market, which will be far more cost effective and can be economically updated in future?. For now, that simply replaces your previous Mac.

2. Others may suggest put the money into an M1 or M2 series Mac Mini. Also spend on a conversion kit and make your 2017 iMac Pro with its 27: 5k screen, a monitor for the Mini. Assuming you are capable, this way you get a great monitor, a much more powerful Mac Mini with PCIE 4.0. Speed and power at minimum, double your iMac Pro.

3. Just buy a regular 24" M series you can afford. That too is PCIE 4.0 and at least twice as powerful as your MacPro.

Finally, if you like a challenge, you can read MacFixit, look at the video’s and decide whether you would like to take on the challenge of buying a used, working Logic board and installing it your self in your 2017 iMacPro. That requires attention to detail, good research on this blog, care and dexterity. During upgrade add internal 2TB WD Black SN770 NVME SSD and increase drive performance by 600% to 3000MB/s transfer rate. Retain mechanical drive for archiving.

It all depends upon the type of work you do and how much money you are prepared to spend.

Tell us what you decide.

 

[chrfr]

Is this encrypted-by-default-on-iMac-Pro thing real? Is this the end of everything I had on those drives? If anyone has any suggestions or input on this, let me know.

Yes, this is true, the data is encrypted whether or not you use FileVault, but if you could somehow get the computer to boot from an external disk you might be able to access it. I assume you have no external backup of your data.

 

[Turnpike]

So you have a working external boot drive?
Just reconnect to another Intel Mac and apply the passwords necessary upon request to get past encryption and you will have no problem using the external data source.

When TM is set up, the user is asked to choose and name a drive, choose to encrypt or not to encrypt. Encryption is on by default and must be deliberately switched off. Encryption default is not a special Mac Pro feature; it is a standard TM disk selection procedure on all OSX since inception. I switch encryption off because it slows TM incredibly and costs disk space. I have no security concerns in my situation.

That said, encrypted data can be also be recovered via Recovery, (Command R at startup). Follow these recovery options: https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/mac-help/mchl338cf9a8/mac

As to fixing the 2017 MacPro, it is a cost benefit issue.
1. Buying a replacement Motherboard from Apple will cost a lot, assuming Apple have old stock available. Unless you intend upgrading yourself you must pay a technician to do the upgrade. A better option is buying a used 2017 - why not buy a later - 2019 Intel iMacPro from Ebay or from the used/refurbished market, which will be far more cost effective and can be economically updated in future?. For now, that simply replaces your previous Mac.

2. Others may suggest put the money into an M1 or M2 series Mac Mini. Also spend on a conversion kit and make your 2017 iMac Pro with its 27: 5k screen, a monitor for the Mini. Assuming you are capable, this way you get a great monitor, a much more powerful Mac Mini with PCIE 4.0. Speed and power at minimum, double your iMac Pro.

3. Just buy a regular 24" M series you can afford. That too is PCIE 4.0 and at least twice as powerful as your MacPro.

Finally, if you like a challenge, you can read MacFixit, look at the video’s and decide whether you would like to take on the challenge of buying a used, working Logic board and installing it your self in your 2017 iMacPro. That requires attention to detail, good research on this blog, care and dexterity. During upgrade add internal 2TB WD Black SN770 NVME SSD and increase drive performance by 600% to 3000MB/s transfer rate. Retain mechanical drive for archiving.

It all depends upon the type of work you do and how much money you are prepared to spend.

Tell us what you decide.

None of this is relevant, this has nothing to do with TM, it wasn't even used. This is about a default encryption that is on the iMac Pro. An encryption that I did not set up, that requires the iMac Pro itself to access the data on the boot drive aside from passwords. I understand the stuff you're saying, but it doesn't apply here. I have an M4 MBPro, etc.

 

[Turnpike]

Yes, this is true, the data is encrypted whether or not you use FileVault, but if you could somehow get the computer to boot from an external disk you might be able to access it. I assume you have no external backup of your data.

Thanks. Yeah, the computer is likely toast, it's most likely the logic board, and changing that would change the part the encryption needs to match. The computer won't start up, boot, or do anything without it.

 

[chrfr]

Thanks. Yeah, the computer is likely toast, it's most likely the logic board, and changing that would change the part the encryption needs to match. The computer won't start up, boot, or do anything without it.

Correct, even though the storage on the iMac Pro is modular, the data is inaccessible if the storage is moved to a new logic board, regardless of whether or not FileVault is enabled.

 

[Bigwaff]

I'm pretty sure T2 Macs (iMac Pro has T2 security chip) don't automatically encrypt external storage devices, even external boot devices. One has to change boot security to even be able to boot from an external device. To encrypt the external device, one must explicitly enable File Vault on the external boot device, which would then present a Recovery Key, then one is prompted to store the Recovery Key in iCloud or write it down. If you lose the Recovery Key, the data is lost.

I plugged it into other iMacs with the same version OS and they don't even recognize the drive.

Do you mean the drives do not mount? Or do you mean the drives do not even appear in Disk Utility?

 

[gilby101]

I plugged it into other iMacs with the same version OS and they don't even recognize the drive.

On the other Mac, open Disk Utility, go its menus and enable "Show All Devices" in the View menu. Does that see the drive? You also try the Terminal command diskutil list.

If not, does it appear in System Information in the USB or Thunderbolt sections?

If not, I would question a) the cable or b) the port on the other Mac.

What model SSD?

 

[Terraaustralis]

None of this is relevant, this has nothing to do with TM, it wasn't even used. This is about a default encryption that is on the iMac Pro. An encryption that I did not set up, that requires the iMac Pro itself to access the data on the boot drive aside from passwords. I understand the stuff you're saying, but it doesn't apply here. I have an M4 MBPro, etc.

I do not like your tone Turnpike. Everything I said was relevant.

If you consider a response to be off target, have the courtesy and grace to appreciate the effort others are making to help you fix your problems. You need to provide relevant detailed information and express yourself more clearly.

Quote:
"At the time, I still didn't understand Time Machine, and thought that using a 2TB external SSD as my boot drive was a form of super-careful operating procedure because should anything happen on my iMac Pro, I could just plug that external SSD into another Mac and either boot from it or pull the files from it (in a worst case scenario)."

From this, I understood you to mean you wanted to recover data from the external drive formatted with Time Machine.

Quote:
"I'd love to fix the iMac Pro, even at a cost,"
Which is why I commented on options.

Quote:
"but my priority right now is being able to recover the info on the external hard drive. I plugged it into other iMacs with the same version OS and they don't even recognize the drive."
Which external SSD brand are you using and which iMacs have you tried using which connection protocol?

On Intel iMacs, the whole point of bootable external drives is that they will boot up other iMacs irrespective of Intel model or OSX version. If your external drive is not being recognised by Disk Utility, there are several possible sources of fault. First we need to know how you connected.

As Bigwaff requested, give specifics. Is the external data TM or just regular file data?

Filevault:
As far as I am aware, Filevault encryption must be turned on by the user to be operational. It is not on by default so your internal MacPro drive is protected by Apple Xprotect hardware/software systems and becomes accessible again by transferring the drive to another Intel iMac. Transferring will enable you to restore the data via Recovery. Your various passwords will enable access. See the Apple link I gave you.

I am happy to be corrected if the above statement contains error.

If transferring drive does not work for some unexpected reason, a disk recovery program like Disk Drill may recover the data.

 

[PaulD-UK]

@Terraaustralis
"I am happy to be corrected..."

OK.
"...I understood you to mean you wanted to recover data from the external drive formatted with Time Machine."

The OP hasn't clarified that.
What was posted is: "At the time, I still didn't understand Time Machine, and thought that using a 2TB external SSD as my boot drive was a form of super-careful operating procedure".

That seems to imply that the OP did NOT use TM, but set up an external OS boot drive, and stored all user-data on that.

From your earlier reply, which as @Turnpike correctly summed up: "none of that is relevant..."

"why not buy a later - 2019 Intel iMacPro...which... can be economically updated in future?"

There is no 'later iMac Pro'. Apple sold the original 2017 design until they discontinued it in 2021.
There is nothing that can be 'updated' in an iMac Pro.
Everything dates from 2017, and is difficult (RAM or Apple's proprietary RAID 0 NAND modules) or very difficult (logic board, CPU) to replace.

"...buying a used, working Logic board and installing it your self in your 2017 iMacPro...
During upgrade add internal 2TB WD Black SN770 NVME SSD and increase drive performance by 600% to 3000MB/s transfer rate. Retain mechanical drive for archiving."

i. There is no internal NVMe slot in an iMac Pro. It uses two proprietary NAND modules with the T2 chip as the controller.
ii. There is no 'increase drive performance by 600%', as the NAND modules are very fast, connected in RAID 0 using 4 channels of PCIe 3 connectivity.
iii. There is no 'mechanical drive', or SATA controller, in an iMac Pro.

"As far as I am aware, Filevault encryption must be turned on by the user to be operational. It is not on by default so your internal MacPro drive is protected by Apple Xprotect hardware/software systems and becomes accessible again by transferring the drive to another Intel iMac."

On the internal RAID 0 array, encryption is (invisibly) on all the time, as it is with all NAND modules connected to a T2 chip in any Intel Mac. The T2 chip hold this firmware-assigned password, and using FileVault adds an additional user-assigned password.

If you transfer the internal NAND modules to another iMac Pro, then they have to be initialised (erased, using Apple Configurator, and loaded with replacement firmware = new invisible password) before they will connect to the new iMac Pro. That means the old iMac Pro's data is lost.

"...if the above statement contains error."
It is important that the threads of MR forums aren't cluttered with information that is 'irrelevant', or worse, erroneous.
We appreciate you have extensive experience to share on older Intel Macs, which do have replaceable/upgradable components, but offering advice for Intel Mac models with T2 controllers, or those with Apple silicon, requires an understanding of the new systems that Apple introduced.

 

[Turnpike]

I do not like your tone Turnpike. Everything I said was relevant.

If you consider a response to be off target, have the courtesy and grace to appreciate the effort others are making to help you fix your problems. You need to provide relevant detailed information and express yourself more clearly.

Quote:
"At the time, I still didn't understand Time Machine, and thought that using a 2TB external SSD as my boot drive was a form of super-careful operating procedure because should anything happen on my iMac Pro, I could just plug that external SSD into another Mac and either boot from it or pull the files from it (in a worst case scenario)."

From this, I understood you to mean you wanted to recover data from the external drive formatted with Time Machine.

Quote:
"I'd love to fix the iMac Pro, even at a cost,"
Which is why I commented on options.

Quote:
"but my priority right now is being able to recover the info on the external hard drive. I plugged it into other iMacs with the same version OS and they don't even recognize the drive."
Which external SSD brand are you using and which iMacs have you tried using which connection protocol?

On Intel iMacs, the whole point of bootable external drives is that they will boot up other iMacs irrespective of Intel model or OSX version. If your external drive is not being recognised by Disk Utility, there are several possible sources of fault. First we need to know how you connected.

As Bigwaff requested, give specifics. Is the external data TM or just regular file data?

Filevault:
As far as I am aware, Filevault encryption must be turned on by the user to be operational. It is not on by default so your internal MacPro drive is protected by Apple Xprotect hardware/software systems and becomes accessible again by transferring the drive to another Intel iMac. Transferring will enable you to restore the data via Recovery. Your various passwords will enable access. See the Apple link I gave you.

I am happy to be corrected if the above statement contains error.

If transferring drive does not work for some unexpected reason, a disk recovery program like Disk Drill may recover the data.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound harsh, it was just that a lot of the stuff I typed was so the things you included wouldn't take up room in the discussion. When I said "At the time I didn't understand Time Machine" I should have added "so it wasn't used or set up."

And when I said "I'd like to fix the iMac Pro, even at cost" it was to retrieve the data, not so I had a working computer again. As I mentioned in the original post, I have plenty of other computers.

And when I said that the 2017 iMac Pro has an automatic encryption, I should have said that it's a little known fact, the iMac PRO has this by default where other iMacs don't. So the normal things that apply to Filevault don't apply here.

It's just that often when an issue is posted, people often rush to post a reply before they even consider the details of the post and it just fills the thread with irrelevant and redundant suggestions. I'm sure I've done it myself too, so I'm sorry about sounding prickly there. 👍

 

[Turnpike]

@Terraaustralis

.....OK. .....

Where TF were you when I was in grade school? ☺️

 

[Turnpike]

I'm pretty sure T2 Macs (iMac Pro has T2 security chip) don't automatically encrypt external storage devices, even external boot devices. One has to change boot security to even be able to boot from an external device. To encrypt the external device, one must explicitly enable File Vault on the external boot device, which would then present a Recovery Key, then one is prompted to store the Recovery Key in iCloud or write it down. If you lose the Recovery Key, the data is lost.

Do you mean the drives do not mount? Or do you mean the drives do not even appear in Disk Utility?

Yeah, they do... automatically. I was like most people in thinking if there was such a thing I'd have heard about it at some point. I spend a LOT of time reading about Mac stuff, and didn't even hear about it until it was too late. Apple should really have put a little sticker on the back of the Pro's saying "all info is automatically encrypted to this logic board, be sure to back up somewhere else in case of equipment failure" or something.

 

[Turnpike]

On the other Mac, open Disk Utility, go its menus and enable "Show All Devices" in the View menu. Does that see the drive? You also try the Terminal command diskutil list.

If not, does it appear in System Information in the USB or Thunderbolt sections?

If not, I would question a) the cable or b) the port on the other Mac.

What model SSD?

At the time I plugged the hard drives (there are actually multiple, I was saying one just to keep it simple) into every version of IOS, iMac, MBPro, 6+ different cables, everything. Trust me, I've been trying things for the last 3 years.

But the terminal command diskutil list is something I just screen grabbed and saved on my phone, I'm going to try that later since I happen to have a drive or two with me here, that's something I don't recall trying.

When trying them on different machines, I think sometimes they don't even show up, and I remember once or twice getting the message about can't read or access the info. I'll try that terminal command suggestion and leave the results in this thread, thanks!

 

[Bigwaff]

Yeah, they do... automatically.

T2 Macs don't automatically encrypt external storage devices, even if they are boot devices. I suspect your external boot device is simply not mounting when attached to another Mac. If device appears in Disk Utility (menu View > Show All Devices) or output of diskutil list, the next step is to attempt to mount a volume. This is when the Recovery Key will be required.

 

[PaulD-UK]

"T2 Macs don't automatically encrypt external storage devices", but the drive can be encrypted if you've chosen APFS (Encrypted) when the external drive was initialised/formatted.

@Turnpike If you still have the iMac Pro, and all attempts to access it's SSD have failed, then one thing @Terraaustralis wrote is spot on:
"Also spend on a conversion kit and make your 2017 iMac Pro with its 27: 5k screen, a monitor...
Assuming you are capable, this way you get a great monitor..."
If that's not for you, then someone else...

 

[Fishrrman]

OP:

This post won't help you now and you probably won't like it, but...

... if you had been using CarbonCopyCloner or SuperDuper instead of time machine to back up that drive, you would have the data today, immediately usable, and in "plain ol' finder format".

Go forth, a wiser man, and learn...

hmmmm...
I'd pay attention to what waff is saying in reply 15 above.

I don't see any reason why you can't take the external boot drive (even if the Mac that created it had a t2 chip), and mount it on another Mac.

I have a 2018 Mini (has t2), and I can take an external boot drive created on the 2018 (intel) Mini, bring it over to my 2024 m4 Mini, and mount it right up.

In fact, I stopped typing this reply for a moment and JUST DID THAT, to verify that it was possible and do-able. The drive is a Crucial x9 SSD, with Sequoia on it. It "mounts right up" on my other Mini, no problems at all.

What kind of external drive do you have that is giving you this problem?
What version of the OS is on it?
Who made the internal drive?
Was it a "ready-to-use" drive, or one you assembled yourself?
If it's a drive you put together yourself, have you tried a different enclosure or perhaps a USB/SATA docking station?

If you really, REALLY want that data back, send it to a data recovery outfit.
But it's going to cost you about 1,500-2,000 to get the data back.
Is it worth that much to you?

 

[Bigwaff]

"T2 Macs don't automatically encrypt external storage devices", but the drive can be encrypted if you've chosen APFS (Encrypted) when the external drive was initialised/formatted.

Yes, but you will be prompted to enter an encryption password... and we are back to where we started. Lose the password, lose the data.

 

[Terraaustralis]

@Terraaustralis
"I am happy to be corrected..."

OK.
"...I understood you to mean you wanted to recover data from the external drive formatted with Time Machine."

The OP hasn't clarified that.
What was posted is: "At the time, I still didn't understand Time Machine, and thought that using a 2TB external SSD as my boot drive was a form of super-careful operating procedure".

That seems to imply that the OP did NOT use TM, but set up an external OS boot drive, and stored all user-data on that.

From your earlier reply, which as @Turnpike correctly summed up: "none of that is relevant..."

"why not buy a later - 2019 Intel iMacPro...which... can be economically updated in future?"

There is no 'later iMac Pro'. Apple sold the original 2017 design until they discontinued it in 2021.
There is nothing that can be 'updated' in an iMac Pro.
Everything dates from 2017, and is difficult (RAM or Apple's proprietary RAID 0 NAND modules) or very difficult (logic board, CPU) to replace.

"...buying a used, working Logic board and installing it your self in your 2017 iMacPro...
During upgrade add internal 2TB WD Black SN770 NVME SSD and increase drive performance by 600% to 3000MB/s transfer rate. Retain mechanical drive for archiving."

i. There is no internal NVMe slot in an iMac Pro. It uses two proprietary NAND modules with the T2 chip as the controller.
ii. There is no 'increase drive performance by 600%', as the NAND modules are very fast, connected in RAID 0 using 4 channels of PCIe 3 connectivity.
iii. There is no 'mechanical drive', or SATA controller, in an iMac Pro.

"As far as I am aware, Filevault encryption must be turned on by the user to be operational. It is not on by default so your internal MacPro drive is protected by Apple Xprotect hardware/software systems and becomes accessible again by transferring the drive to another Intel iMac."

On the internal RAID 0 array, encryption is (invisibly) on all the time, as it is with all NAND modules connected to a T2 chip in any Intel Mac. The T2 chip hold this firmware-assigned password, and using FileVault adds an additional user-assigned password.

If you transfer the internal NAND modules to another iMac Pro, then they have to be initialised (erased, using Apple Configurator, and loaded with replacement firmware = new invisible password) before they will connect to the new iMac Pro. That means the old iMac Pro's data is lost.

"...if the above statement contains error."
It is important that the threads of MR forums aren't cluttered with information that is 'irrelevant', or worse, erroneous.
We appreciate you have extensive experience to share on older Intel Macs, which do have replaceable/upgradable components, but offering advice for Intel Mac models with T2 controllers, or those with Apple silicon, requires an understanding of the new systems that Apple introduced.

Thank you Paul.
I am clearly out of my depth with the MacPro and I appreciate your courteous response. I am suitably chastened. I was unaware that it was a T2 product and your point about the internal Raid array endorses Turnpykes concern.
I shall indeed be more cautious about making comments after this experience.
I appreciate your clarification.

 

[Terraaustralis]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound harsh, it was just that a lot of the stuff I typed was so the things you included wouldn't take up room in the discussion. When I said "At the time I didn't understand Time Machine" I should have added "so it wasn't used or set up."

And when I said "I'd like to fix the iMac Pro, even at cost" it was to retrieve the data, not so I had a working computer again. As I mentioned in the original post, I have plenty of other computers.

And when I said that the 2017 iMac Pro has an automatic encryption, I should have said that it's a little known fact, the iMac PRO has this by default where other iMacs don't. So the normal things that apply to Filevault don't apply here.

It's just that often when an issue is posted, people often rush to post a reply before they even consider the details of the post and it just fills the thread with irrelevant and redundant suggestions. I'm sure I've done it myself too, so I'm sorry about sounding prickly there. 👍

Apology accepted Turnpyke.
I am out of order with my much of my information for which I sincerely apologise.
All is forgiven.