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Maven1975

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Aug 24, 2008
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I have been boxed out of Apples most recent laptops over the last 24 months due to the PWM implementation.

Has anyone checked to see if PWM is present on the 16”?

Thanks in advance!
 
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That's bad.
Their interpretation: "As part of our extensive review of the new MacBook Pro 16 (Core i9, Pro 5500M) we look at the PWM brightness regulation of the display (or flickering). In our tests the display uses a very high frequency that should not be harmful / visible."
 
At what brightness % does PWM occur? Could not understand from the video, sorry.

PWM backlights basically work like this, instead of having the LED's that light the display on constantly they are rapidly switched on and off in pulses thus the name Pulse Width Modulation.

To make the display dimmer they simply increase the gaps between the pulses so that your eyes interpret the display as dimmer and to make it appear brighter the gaps between pulses is shorter. Another way to do it is to increase how many pulses are sent per second instead of having the pulses last longer or shorter.

In this display Apple is using a very high frequency for the pulses so it should not be noticeable to the human eye at any brightness level.
 
I think I know what PWM is. If I understand correctly it is used to control the brightness levels. The thing is that, sometimes, it occurs only below some brightness levels (for example, sometimes PWM fan be measured below xy% of brightness but not above). Sometimes PWM can be measured on all brightness levels. What is the case with MBP 16?
 
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I think I know what PWM is. If I understand correctly it is used to control the brightness levels. The thing is that, sometimes, it occurs only below some brightness levels (for example, sometimes PWM fan be measured below xy% of brightness but not above). Sometimes PWM can be measured on all brightness levels. What is the case with MBP 16?

PWM is always present at all brightness levels if the display uses that technology for its backlight at all. The alternative is DC (Direct Current) where there are no pulses used at all.

When people say they can "see" the PWM effect only at lower brightness this is just due to the pulses being wide and the frequency low, but the PWM method of controlling the backlight is still used even when at 100% brightness.

The 16" thus uses PWM for 1% to 100% brightness levels, DC is not used at any point. But its frequency is very high so it should not be noticeable even at low brightness levels.
 
Thanks, enough reason for me to steer clear.
Sad, though.
[automerge]1575466116[/automerge]

//hilarious the first comment is to go see a doctor... yeah that will fix the side by side comparison for him.

For all we know he just has difficulty adjusting to the larger screen and that is making him ill. His old laptop used PWM too by the way.

You could just buy one and if it happens to you, return it for a full refund.
 
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So you got a link that ranks the 16" MBP as the 4th best laptop ever tested and your reaction is "That's bad"? Tough crowd to please.
I was confused by that too I thought maybe I was misunderstanding and it was 4th worst!
 
So you got a link that ranks the 16" MBP as the 4th best laptop ever tested and your reaction is "That's bad"? Tough crowd to please.
That's not how that list works.


It's not new on the Macbook Pro 16" either; https://ledstrain.org/d/399-macbook-pro-pwm-help-which-model-i-get/

PWM related irritation, even at higher frequencies has been reported by many over the years.

It is considered an inferior solution for display dimming and many external monitor companies offer flicker free as a major feature.

If it doesn't affect you enough to notice, good. But the theory is that it is still causing fatigue to your eyes.

Pick what works for you personally and move on, laptop rankings are marketing.

For others who want to read more, there are a variety of websites that cover this.

I was confused by that too I thought maybe I was misunderstanding and it was 4th worst!
It's a little more nuanced than that. It's the 4th best among all machines with a non-zero PWM number.

Basically all machines that have 0 for the value are the "best." Then, whoever has the highest frequency is better (at least on paper).
 
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I suffer from pwm I gave back my iphone 11 pro, apple watch 4, they had oled and PWM

I cannot see PWM flicker on the MacBook and eyes feel fine
 
No offence intended, but this is from the notebookcheck article referenced in post #16.

PWM LED frequencies of 3000Hz or above would eliminate chances of users having issues, as no evidence has been found of effects on humans at these frequencies.

This is the measurement for the 16"

Apple MacBook Pro 16 2019 i9 5500M3072x1920IPS131700 (Hz)
 
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It is considered an inferior solution for display dimming and many external monitor companies offer flicker free as a major feature.

Not wrong.

I know in my case, low frequency PWM causes problems for me. Those half-wave rectified LED Christmas bulbs are painful. Yet, I'll see people walk up, look at the flickering displays, and buy them anyways. It boggles my mind.

And early PWM on displays were awful. 60-120Hz. So I understand where the reputation comes from, since I had to buy flicker free in that era.

If it doesn't affect you enough to notice, good. But the theory is that it is still causing fatigue to your eyes.

Pick what works for you personally and move on, laptop rankings are marketing.

For others who want to read more, there are a variety of websites that cover this.


Ironically from your own links:

As laid out in both studies by Retro-PC-Mania and Dial GambH linked above, PWM LED frequencies of 3000Hz or above would eliminate chances of users having issues, as no evidence has been found of effects on humans at these frequencies.

And here we're discussing 130,000Hz frequencies.

I've been able to catch flicker in the 1000-2000Hz range with my aquarium (fast moving air bubbles help raise the Flicker Fusion Threshold). But Apple is using a frequency nearly two orders of magnitude over what the studies found. In general, I do think we need more research to replicate results, but so far I'm not buying that 100kHz+ is a major eye strain/fatigue risk. Logically, it isn't that different from suggesting that it's possible that drinking less (but not zero) wine will get you more drunk, everything else being equal.

For all we know he just has difficulty adjusting to the larger screen and that is making him ill. His old laptop used PWM too by the way.

This.

There's so many ways we can create eye strain day to day with lighting, that anecdotes aren't terribly helpful without details. Brightness, how much of our field of view is filled with the display, improper environment lighting, and low PWM frequencies all contribute in different ways to strain. It doesn't help that LED not only brought us PWM backlighting, but also the ability to build big PC monitors with eye-searing brightness.

I tend to keep my displays at 100-120 nits, and I can't imagine trying to use them at over 160-200 nits day to day, it'd just be too painful. And yet they keep coming out of the box at ~300 nits by default. Yeesh.

I suffer from pwm I gave back my iphone 11 pro, apple watch 4, they had oled and PWM

I cannot see PWM flicker on the MacBook and eyes feel fine

Huh, I had to look it up, but they do use PWM to control the pixel brightness. And the frequency is too low, IMO. For me, 480Hz is about minimum for TV/Movies before things are "okay".
 
Ironically from your own links:
As laid out in both studies by Retro-PC-Mania and Dial GambH linked above, PWM LED frequencies of 3000Hz or above would eliminate chances of users having issues, as no evidence has been found of effects on humans at these frequencies.
And here we're discussing 130,000Hz frequencies.
I'm with you, that theoretically, such high frequencies should make this a non-issue, but yet, we have people who report problems. It seems like a hard problem to test and generalize the effects of various PWM frequencies on a large number of people.
 
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I believe PWM has always been the method to regulate brightness of LEDs.

Are older MacBooks using pwm to control perceived brightness? When did that start?

LED are diods, so you would have to regulate current to regulate brightness. PWM is a simple way to regulate the average current.

PWM HW is built into many embedded microcontrollers as it is widely used for many applications. That makes it a cheap an efficient solution for any manufacturer.
 
I believe PWM has always been the method to regulate brightness of LEDs.



LED are diods, so you would have to regulate current to regulate brightness. PWM is a simple way to regulate the average current.

PWM HW is built into many embedded microcontrollers as it is widely used for many applications. That makes it a cheap an efficient solution for any manufacturer.
The alternate method is DC Dimming.
 
Assuming I have not misunderstood how this work.

Varying the DC voltage, would require a resistor in series with the LED to get a varying current, and although this may work for a small device like a watch. I doubt that it will be an effective approach for a 500 nits LED backlight.

Are there any Apple competitors that do this for similar type products?

Are older MacBooks using pwm to control perceived brightness? When did that start?
 
I believe PWM has always been the method to regulate brightness of LEDs.



LED are diods, so you would have to regulate current to regulate brightness. PWM is a simple way to regulate the average current.

PWM HW is built into many embedded microcontrollers as it is widely used for many applications. That makes it a cheap an efficient solution for any manufacturer.

You can also regulate led’s by direct changing the current. I don’t know if they’ve used that method in the last.
 
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