Loading Classic Applications on OS X

[oldmacplus]

I used to be a desktop publisher of a catalog (for ten years). I have used Photoshop 3.4 for many thousands of menu and button commands. I can run it in my sleep. I don't need most of the features on the later versions. I have later versions and they are harder for me to do what I want.

I also have the same affinity to Filemaker. I think it's 2.1. Anyway, it's hard for an old dog to learn new menus. I have been hanging on to the last 1.25 Dual processor Mac on which you could just wipe the drive and load 9.2.2 or what ever the last version of classic OS was and you could run all the old apps going back to the pre-PowerPC dedicated apps.

This computer runs them all just fine but I want the latest G5 tower. I understand that some of the classic apps can run from within OS X and somehow X emulates the classic OS or something like that.

But I am told that the problem is that many of the older classic apps will not load onto the later or any of the G5s. So I'm trying to see if any of you have had any luck with this issue or if its just a lost cause. The apps I want to load the most are Photoshop 3.4 and maybe the pre-power PC version of Filemaker I'm pretty sure its 2.1.

Please no lectures about keeping up with the new programs I have Photoshop 4 and 7. Just don't use them. Tried but a pain in the behind for me. 3.4 is etched in my brain.

I will greatly appreciate any help on this issue.

 

[Dane D.]

Sorry man, but that computer you have is the last of a breed. I too like the older apps, not as old as yours, but running Classic apps in OS X is a pain. If I need to do something in a Classic app, I re-boot, a pain but it works. Your choice is either use what you have or upgrade software.

 

[oldmacplus]

Almost forgot I also use Pagemaker 6. Have many scripts written custom for me to combine Filemaker files data and Photshop 3.4 scans into pagemaker document. So anything regarding loading Pagemaker 6.0 I need to know too. Thanks again.

 

[oldmacplus]

Dane

Thanks. But what do you mean reboot. Can you reboot in Classic on the latest Macs? Or do you mean reboot an older computer? Thanks.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Very few applications that ran in OS 9.2 won't run in Classic. For the most part, they work just fine, including heavy ones like Photoshop and PageMaker, without rebooting. The biggest problem you are likely to encounter is with pre-OS 9.x Classic applications. They might have problems running on 9.x and consequently, will have similar problems in Classic.

 

[MisterMe]

Almost forgot I also use Pagemaker 6. Have many scripts written custom for me to combine Filemaker files data and Photshop 3.4 scans into pagemaker document. So anything regarding loading Pagemaker 6.0 I need to know too. Thanks again.

Filemaker 2.1 just works in Classic. So too does PageMaker 7. PageMaker 6.5.2 works, but not as well as PM7. If your app runs under MacOS 9, then it will probably run just fine under Classic. Even most System 7-compatible apps will run just fine. As a test, I just fired-up Cricket Graph 1.3.2 and printed out a 17-year old graph. Works like a charm. There are, of course, some applications which will have problems. However, these were probably already obsolete ten years ago. Whoever told you that you had to reboot was just full of it. Reboot what? As for Dane D.'s declaration of pain running Classic apps, I have never seen anything while running Classic that I would classify as painful.

Long story short, the list of System 7-MacOS 9 apps which don't work in the Classic environment is very short. I recommend that you apply all applicable updates to your old apps.

 

[Bibulous]

This is interesting, I have been trying to install classic on my G4 Tibook, it has a fresh 10.4 install, and I am trying to install 9.2 from the CD shipped with my powerbook, but it just will not read my HD as a start up disk. I can start up in 9.2 from the disk, but can not install to my HD.

Need to run Adobe Distiller 5.0, but can not, bummer

 

[Eric5h5]

So I'm trying to see if any of you have had any luck with this issue or if its just a lost cause.

You'll be fine. Don't listen to anyone who says otherwise.

Sorry man, but that computer you have is the last of a breed. I too like the older apps, not as old as yours, but running Classic apps in OS X is a pain. If I need to do something in a Classic app, I re-boot, a pain but it works. Your choice is either use what you have or upgrade software.

Sorry, but that makes no sense....

This is interesting, I have been trying to install classic on my G4 Tibook, it has a fresh 10.4 install, and I am trying to install 9.2 from the CD shipped with my powerbook, but it just will not read my HD as a start up disk. I can start up in 9.2 from the disk, but can not install to my HD.

You don't want to install 9.2 as a separate OS or anything. Just install Classic from one of the OS X CDs that came with your computer, and run Classic stuff from within OS X like you're supposed to. Contrary to the above, there's nothing painful about it; you just have to wait for OS 9 to "boot" the first time you run a Classic app, which takes all of maybe 5 seconds on a G5....

--Eric

 

[jepjepjep]

photoshop 4.0.1 just works

I have Photoshop 4.0.1 working just fine with Classic on my powerbook g4. I think I remember running version 3 before also, but I can't verify it for you.

Best of luck,

 

[Dane D.]

I saying that if you run OS X.x.x on a machine capable of booting into 9.2.2 then you are better off re-booting into 9.2.2. I agree you can do most everything you want in Classic, but it is not the same as running under 9.2.2. I get messages about fonts when running Classic. Plus I noticed that not all my extension load when Classic is opened. I just saying, if you have pre-OS X apps, then re-boot into 9. It is a personal preference, besides I like the speed of OS 9's interface, things happen much quicker than in OS X.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I saying that if you run OS X.x.x on a machine capable of booting into 9.2.2 then you are better off re-booting into 9.2.2. I agree you can do most everything you want in Classic, but it is not the same as running under 9.2.2. I get messages about fonts when running Classic. Plus I noticed that not all my extension load when Classic is opened. I just saying, if you have pre-OS X apps, then re-boot into 9. It is a personal preference, besides I like the speed of OS 9's interface, things happen much quicker than in OS X.

It sounds like you might need to spend some time with Extensions Manager. What messages do you get about fonts? I've never seen any. Possibly you've got some corrupt, duplicate or missing fonts. I did, and it really screwed up PageMaker, both booted into OS9 and running it in Classic.

For me, Classic works almost too well. I rely on it and the old applications it allows me to run so much, that I can't migrate to an Intel Mac without spending big money on software upgrades.

 

[Eric5h5]

I get messages about fonts when running Classic. Plus I noticed that not all my extension load when Classic is opened. I just saying, if you have pre-OS X apps, then re-boot into 9. It is a personal preference, besides I like the speed of OS 9's interface, things happen much quicker than in OS X.

I don't have any of those problems. Also, rebooting just to use a Classic app or two is pretty much not ever happening (even if my G5 could do it--and keep in mind the OP wants a G5 tower, so booting OS 9 is literally impossible) because you can't have any sort of workflow if you're constantly rebooting. If it works for you, that's fine, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone even if they had an old G4.

--Eric

 

[killmoms]

Wow... I didn't think people like this existed anymore. Will this happen to me? Will I hit a certain age and then just refuse to use anything later than OS X?

That thought ****ing terrifies me.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Wow... I didn't think people like this existed anymore. Will this happen to me? Will I hit a certain age and then just refuse to use anything later than OS X?

That thought ****ing terrifies me.

You scare way too easily.

 

[MisterMe]

... Will this happen to me? Will I hit a certain age and then just refuse to use anything later than OS X?

...

If you are like most people, then you will learn that computers are tools when you get older. You will use the most appropriate tool for the job. If that tool runs on MacOS X, then fantastic. If it runs under Classic, then that's OK too. But, the bottomline is the bottomline and the bottomline is the work product. When you get older you will have to earn a living. You will be paid for your work product. You will not have the option of waiting for an adequate software tool to be ported to your favorite OS.

 

[oldmacplus]

Just to make Sure That I'm Understanding these Answers...

Thanks so much to Dane, Eric, MisterMe, IJReilly. I just want to recap what I've read here so you guys can correct me if I'm not quite getting it right.

But first I just wanted to explain about what I've been doing. I have no interest in OS X. As promised I was able to with the last of these G4 167bus, 1.25 dual jobs (with the mirror) literally wipe the drive. Then I loaded an original 9.2.2 and the computer runs quite fast and doesn't miss OS X any more than me. It just ain't there!

I couldn't see the reason for learning the new OS when I was all invested in what I needed for software. And other things I do on my own work just fine with the software I have. I still have the restore disc for OS X but until I want to use it I didn't want to go through the X. I think there is an emulation layer like when PowerPC came out and emulated the non-PowerPC Programs.

I'm sure its not possible to do this with the G5s because the ROMs have been changed. What I'm trying to understand (just to make sure that we're on the same page) is when you say that I can run say Photoshop 3.4, or Filemaker 2.1 and the computer will sense that this is a classic app and will launch them in classic from within X; that you are talking about a G5 Mac. Because I know that the one I'm running now was also designed to do that from X if I left it on there.

What I'm trying to confirm is that the latest G5 can load and run these apps through X. The new G5s have gotten so much faster that even if there is some emulation going on, it will probably run faster than in 9.2.2 on this G4. When the Powere PC first came out and you were running non-Power PC apps, they would be slower than say on the Quadra 650. But then when we got to the 8600 and the 9200 and the first dark grey G4s, the processing was so much faster even using the emulation that it put the Quadra to shame.

I just don't want it to run like Virtual Windows on a G4 which I think was about 386 speed. Yes, I have out of need had to go to Pentium 4 for some things. But I just use it when I'm dealing with non Apple support sites. like my E-Broker. But if I could run the classic through the X on a really fast G5 that would solve my need for more speed even with the emulation.

I have been told, however, that in order to run them you have to be able to load them. That's where the devil may be. So if any of you have actually been able to load some of these older apps on a G5; that's what I'm glad to know.

 

[thewhitehart]

The classic apps will run just as fast in classic mode on a G5 as they would on an old G4, even faster. Classic Power PC appls are run directly in Power PC code, and only low level system calls are passed onto OS X. It is not emulation in the sense that Virtual PC for OS X is. Likewise, Classic mode utilizes the same emulation for Moto 68k apps that a "true" classic power pc mac would.

You are right that the G5 and other Power PC macs made after September 2002 cannot boot into OS 9.

To quote Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X/Classic):

It is the only way to run "classic" applications on Apple's G5 systems as well as on most G4 based computers sold after September of 2002. These machines cannot boot Mac OS 9 or earlier. Classic is not supported on versions of Mac OS X that run on Apple systems incorporating Intel microprocessors, which includes all new shipping Apple computers, as of September 2006.[1]

Classic's compatibility is very good, provided the application using it does not require direct access to hardware or engage in full-screen drawing. However, it is not a perfect clone of a Mac OS 9 computer. The Finder included with Mac OS X v10.2 and later does not support the "Reveal Object" Apple event used by Mac OS 9 applications, causing the "Reveal In Finder" functionality for those applications to be lost. Early releases of Mac OS X 10.2 would often fail to draw window frames of Classic applications correctly. Additionally (somewhat to the surprise of end-users) Classic resurrected some older applications that had previously been unusable on the Macintosh Quadra and Power Macintosh series; this is because Mac OS X replaced Mac OS 9's virtual memory system with a more standard and less fragile implementation, and eliminated the Motorola 68040's split cache system.

Classic's performance is also generally acceptable, with a few exceptions. Most of an application is run directly as PowerPC code. (This is likely a major reason why Classic is not supported on Intel-based Macs.) Motorola 68k code is handled by the same Motorola 68LC040 emulator that Mac OS 9 uses. Some application functions are actually faster in Classic than under Mac OS 9 on equivalent hardware, due to performance improvements in the newer operating system's device drivers. These applications are largely those that use heavy disk processing, and as of 2005 most have been ported to Mac OS X. On the other hand, applications that rely on heavy processing and which did not share resources under Mac OS 9's co-operative multitasking model will be interrupted by other (non-Classic) processes under Mac OS X's preemptive multitasking. The greater processing power of most systems that run OS X (compared to systems intended to run Mac OS 8 or 9) helps to mitigate the performance degradation of Classic's emulation.

 

[oldmacplus]

Thewhitehart - One final clarification please

"Classic's performance is also generally acceptable, with a few exceptions. Most of an application is run directly as PowerPC code. (This is likely a major reason why Classic is not supported on Intel-based Macs.) Motorola 68k code is handled by the same Motorola 68LC040 emulator that Mac OS 9 uses. Some application functions are actually faster in Classic than under Mac OS 9 on equivalent hardware, due to performance improvements in the newer operating system's device drivers. These applications are largely those that use heavy disk processing, and as of 2005 most have been ported to Mac OS X. On the other hand, applications that rely on heavy processing and which did not share resources under Mac OS 9's co-operative multitasking model will be interrupted by other (non-Classic) processes under Mac OS X's preemptive multitasking. The greater processing power of most systems that run OS X (compared to systems intended to run Mac OS 8 or 9) helps to mitigate the performance degradation of Classic's emulation."

Are you saying that Classic is no longer supported in Intel-based Macs because it is handled by the same Motorola emulator that Mac OS 9 uses and there is no tech support. Or are you saying that these older applications will just plain not run at all on the Intel-based Macs.

Thanks again.

 

[oldmacplus]

Sorry, I guess I was quoting wikipedia

About the Intel-based support of Classic. Are you saying these older application will not run on the Intel-based Macs because its done with emulation or just not supported by apple tech support?

 

[Blue Velvet]

There is no Classic on Intel Macs. Get a second-hand G5.

Besides, you're still going to have to get to grips with certain elements of OSX even to use your software properly. Font management for a start can't be done with ATM or whatever you've been using in the past... either learn about FontBook or get a new version of Suitcase or Linotype's FontExplorer X (that's free)

Sometimes old dogs just have to learn new tricks. Particularly when it comes to publishing.