Mac Pro-software-scandal

[Paradiseapple]

I´m quite shocked by the following post:

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2541408&start=90&tstart=0

It just says that the logic-support told "trailerman":

"... that Logic is unable to use more than 8 cores, and recoding it to use more than 8 will require a major overhaul (I'm paraphrasing obvioulsy). This is not something which will be fixed with an intermediate update, and would require a major upgrade.

In other words, it's unlikely this issue will be addressed before Logic 10.0 and possibly not even then. I also raised the 6 core issues, but the technician had no response. It seems highly likely though, that the same issue is what's causing Logic to underperform on the new 6 core rigs, and therefore a fix is unlikely to be imminent."

Isn´t that upsetting? Ok the 12-cores - as he says - can get 107 tracks on the benchmark-test but anyway - it´s quite a scandal...
So what shall we do?

 

[Vylen]

Isn´t that upsetting? Ok the 12-cores - as he says - can get 107 tracks on the benchmark-test but anyway - it´s quite a scandal...
So what shall we do?

Scandal? Far from it... more like an inconvenience, since it's just poorly designed code that doesn't scale properly - while the developers probably envisioned a system with more than 8 cores, they can't really test their software on something that didn't exist at the time.

As for what to do? Just wait for a new version, it's not like you can actually do anything - you're the consumer... perhaps raise a complaint but developers hate people who constantly complain especially when they already know about the issue (i.e. having to read your complaint ain't going to make the process faster - in fact, it's taking their precious time fixing the problem).

 

[psychometry]

So what shall we do?

ProTools!

 

[Paradiseapple]

So you don´t think that it is a risk to get the 12-core 2.66? It´s just quite some money for me, but on the other side I want to keep my next Mac Pro for another 4 years. I hope it will be ok for that period of time....

And Pro Tools? Ok it´s an idea...

 

[tomscott1988]

So you don´t think that it is a risk to get the 12-core 2.66? It´s just quite some money for me, but on the other side I want to keep my next Mac Pro for another 4 years. I hope it will be ok for that period of time....

And Pro Tools? Ok it´s an idea...

Any multicore computer you buy isnt going to be maxed to 100% all the time, ive had my 2008 for a year and havent gone past 60%. Software always takes ages to catch up! its been like that since the dawn of computing. The 2010 mac pro has been out a month! how long has this version of logic been out? what do you expect. It takes months of development and testing for an end user product. Not an overnight job.

I suggest you chill and use the machine to do some work. You buy a machine because you need it. I suggest you buy a machine you think you need now rather than saying i need it to last so long... its like saying OMG i just bought a 12 core pro and photoshop is using like 2 cores! OMMMGG! its the way it is unfortunately youl have to deal with it for now. It is an investment and if you cant afford it then buy a more in your budget machine all the pros are capable!

 

[mattmower]

So you don´t think that it is a risk to get the 12-core 2.66? It´s just quite some money for me, but on the other side I want to keep my next Mac Pro for another 4 years. I hope it will be ok for that period of time....

And Pro Tools? Ok it´s an idea...

Personally unless the improvement you'll see over what you have now is marginal I'd go ahead with your plans.

We've no real idea how much effort is involved in supporting 6 & 12 core machines and nobody at Apple, even assuming they are really intimate with Logic development, is going to risk telling you.

For their own DAW not to work well on their premier machine is likely to be something of an embarrassment so I'd guess it would be fixed sooner rather than later.

I use Logic (as well as Ableton Live) and this hasn't changed my feelings about the 6-core (that I have on order) one bit.

Matt

 

[sochet]

ProTools!

For Midi scoring (or anyone who works in production rather than straight recording) that would be an inconvenience. Not to mention that fact I'd put money on PT running worse than Logic on the new MP's.

Digidesign are notorious for updates to their software (look at how long it took to update PT to run on Snow Leopard) Plus senior Digi staff have gone on record saying that integrating hyperthreading into Pt would mean a complete re-write of the engine and that's something not being considered right now.

For the prosumer it's even worse (Pro Tools LE has a very limited track count, and the worst thing is it doesn't have plugin delay compensation (but every other non TDM system has it) as well as lack of SEMPTE)

The only way round this is shelling out tens of thousands for a PT HD system which runs on outdated DSP card (hell people are buying 12 core macs and putting upwards of 32gigs of RAM in it, DSP cards are redundant) and substandard A/D converters (which is my most people use third party converters by Prism/Lavry/Apogee etc.)

I've been lucky to work in pretty much every high end music studio here (London) and the majority have PT HD as a main recording program (just used like a tape machine really) and then a separate Logic system for more "Creative" uses.

I didn't have an option when getting my new octa MP (I got a replacement from a '08 due to several massive hardware failures) and because I had lost *lots* of money in studio downtime I couldn't justify the extra cost of a hexacore (The processors are only £200 more, but when you figure in the RAM difference etc, it soon gets bigger)

All in all I wouldn't be too worried if you have to kill 4 cores for the time being, does anyone here regularly max out their MP's in a Logic sessions (I certainly don't but the vast majority of my work is mixing/mastering now not tracking)

Things like a Scratch disc and more RAM will help. Hopefully Apple will get off their arses and do something about it

Edit: I did the gearslutz benchmark test and I could play back 79 out of the 84 tracks (but I did have Safari open streaming the new Apple presentation yesterday live and with 20+ tabs on top. I also believe it wasn't on my scratch drive either, so there you go)

 

[Paradiseapple]

Any multicore computer you buy isnt going to be maxed to 100% all the time, ive had my 2008 for a year and havent gone past 60%. Software always takes ages to catch up! its been like that since the dawn of computing. The 2010 mac pro has been out a month! how long has this version of logic been out? what do you expect. It takes months of development and testing for an end user product. Not an overnight job.

I suggest you chill and use the machine to do some work. You buy a machine because you need it. I suggest you buy a machine you think you need now rather than saying i need it to last so long... its like saying OMG i just bought a 12 core pro and photoshop is using like 2 cores! OMMMGG! its the way it is unfortunately youl have to deal with it for now. It is an investment and if you cant afford it then buy a more in your budget machine all the pros are capable!

OK - I think you´re right. I withdraw the word "scandal".

 

[Yukon Joe]

There's an awful lot of software out there that doesn't use more than one core...

 

[Ravich]

This is the least surprising thing ever. I've been following that thread and most of the "pro audio specialists" that were spoken to had genuinely no idea what the actual problem was.

People have been pointing out the fact that Logic doesnt work properly if you disable 2 cores on an octad for a while now, so the fact that the hexacore doesnt run Logic properly unless you disable 2 cores isnt surprising.


I just hope that everyone who bought a 6 or 12 core with logic does their share of calling Apple to get their commentary on the matter.

There's really no way in hell that I'm going to be paying for logic until Apple gets their act together. This decidedly puts logic behind Sonar and Cubase


The 8 core nehalem came out in Q1 2009 and Logic 9 was released Q3 2009. Is it really so much to ask that Apple's pro audio application fully supports it's pro workstation? I dont think we're being unreasonable here.

 

[milo]

While scandal is probably pushing it, the fact that it actually runs WORSE on a hex than a quad is a pretty big embarrassment for apple. It's not like we're talking about an app that hasn't been updated for multicores at all yet, it already supports up to 8 but seems to freak out when it sees six.

And six cores not existing at the time isn't an excuse, the chips were already shipping by the time the last Logic revision went out (and apple certainly had developer access months before that). Not to mention that even earlier if they wanted they could have faked a six core by disabling two of the cores on an octo.

Saying that users complaining about the problem takes up developer's time is just laughable. Users need to let them know the problem exists and that it is important to users and should be a priority for the devs.

ProTools!

Does it use all cores on the 6 and 12? Does it use the hyperthreading cores too?

PT isn't a 64 bit app and it does a horrible job of running virtual instruments (at least third party ones) so it's not an option for me.

Any multicore computer you buy isnt going to be maxed to 100% all the time, ive had my 2008 for a year and havent gone past 60%. Software always takes ages to catch up! its been like that since the dawn of computing. The 2010 mac pro has been out a month! how long has this version of logic been out? what do you expect. It takes months of development and testing for an end user product. Not an overnight job.

Except that the 8 core has been out for almost a year and a half and it's still not fully supported yet. Of course it's extremely difficult to use all cores fully, but Logic leaves cores sitting there doing absolutely nothing.

There's an awful lot of software out there that doesn't use more than one core...

While that is true, how many apps run worse with more cores like logic does?

This decidedly puts logic behind Sonar and Cubase

Does cubase use all cores (including HT) on mac? I know it does on PC. And Cubase isn't 64 bit on mac yet so that's a limitation as well.

For someone looking to buy a machine, I'd say if you absolutely have to get something now get a 4 or 8, the 2009 refurbs may be a good deal since the new ones don't improve anything really. If you can wait, wait until Logic is updated.

i7 hackintosh also is a killer machine for Logic, and a grand or more cheaper than the MP models it outperforms.

And this issue definitely needs to get more attention, any Logic user looking at these new machines should be totally aware of this before buying.

 

[CountlovE]

i7 hackintosh also is a killer machine for Logic, and a grand or more cheaper than the MP models it outperforms.

And this issue definitely needs to get more attention, any Logic user looking at these new machines should be totally aware of this before buying.

I was going to do Hackintosh until I did full research on hardware and the problems. There is a good chance that after every OSX update you will have a unworkable system, and will have to wait for the hacker community to come out with a workable fix for your hardware setup. It is a huge pain in the ass. I recomend anyone looking to do hackintosh to actually read fully for the Motherboard/Graphics card you will be using. I agree completely that its cheaper and can be more powerful, but I do not want to spend all of my time with OSX maintenance for a hacked system. That's the tradeoff. What is your time worth? That's the question.

 

[milo]

There are builds that take all updates fine, and if you are worried you can always wait until other people have done it. Once it is up and running, system updates are a very minor thing to worry about. Time spent tweaking has been minimal and I saved well over a grand - my $1300 box blows away the base mac pro for almost twice that (and probably a model or two up from that). My time is worth a lot to me but not that much.

 

[sochet]

Plus for your own use is fine, but if I walked into a studio I'd be less than happy to see one, let alone what the clients would think


My housemate had a hackintosh and it was a nightmare to update (not to mention random problems) things may have moved on now.

 

[milo]

In a studio I'd hope the computer would be back in a closet to keep the noise down, regardless of whether it was a real mac or not.

 

[sochet]

In a studio I'd hope the computer would be back in a closet to keep the noise down, regardless of whether it was a real mac or not.

The Mac pro is quiet enough to be in the control room. No studios have them in machine rooms anymore.

 

[Icaras]

ProTools!

I'd rather go back to Windows than start working with that shovelware.

Ah, maybe that's too harsh, but I have bad memories of PT. I hated keeping it up to date with your system.

 

[myca]

I'm a little late on this thread, but with me planning an update after I move house I've been keeping an eye on the way Logic performs with the newer hardware, both the Mac Pro and MacBook Pros, i5 and i7, so I posted bugs reports to apple.

And the feedback I got was that (both bugs were closed), basically it's acting as intended


So as it stands, the issue of Logic Pro not fully utilising the recent hardwares resources isn't seen as a bug

So as far as a new Mac Pro goes, I guess I should get the Quad 3.2, as it will beat down my dual G5, and my hackintosh quad (the hackintosh was a nice experiment, but maybe not worth the hassle). But a new MBP won't really do as much over my three year old MacBook as it should, which is really putting me off getting a new MBP.