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impulse462

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Jun 3, 2009
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Next was the outright result of too many bozos at Apple forcing jobs out—-it shows the danger of it. The bozos caused next’s existence, and he had to fight an imperfect fight out of necessity (going into education wasn’t the “free will” choice it seemed but a lock from litigation with the bozos wanting to tie his hands). The bozos were that existential, a cancer that kicked out the host and wanted the host to fail and die. So it certainly set jobs back on his heels, forcing him to start imperfectly with many forced disadvantages.

During that time he got Pixar public. Too much vision wasn’t nexts problem. And he had a lot of business sense and did a lot of things he didn’t want to make next profitable, including getting rid of hardware and going enterprise, and making WebObjects successful. He was about to release a openstep for windows layer for windows as well (it was super impressive and let you fat binary compile any next app so it ran like a native app on windows—I used it, very impressive—and something he didn’t want to do, but did because it was needed for profitability and reach).

Next was too late to be the 3rd standard in the short time he had wrt hardware, but he learned to run it profitably even though it hurt to do so in the final few years. Despite all those disadvantages, he still got the company profitable in the end. Next was profitable the last 2 years as opposed to Apple which was bleeding money And nearly died. Not to mention, it ended up acquiring Apple in the end. All the best next guys took over, gutted the bozos, and saved the company and made it thrive. We’re basically using nextstep today, that’s how good the vision is.

That said, I understand your view, we just disagree. FYI I worked at next so I obviously have my biases.
Thats pretty cool man. Next was before my time, but I've always considered their workstations cool as hell. I think the next computer (1988) was one of the first computers to have a separate DSP for signal processing tasks which makes it super interesting for my research. Do you know anything about how that was original included/what was the thought process there?
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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Thats pretty cool man. Next was before my time, but I've always considered their workstations cool as hell. I think the next computer (1988) was one of the first computers to have a separate DSP for signal processing tasks which makes it super interesting for my research. Do you know anything about how that was original included/what was the thought process there?

The DSP was cool until it wasn't. It was a bit of a boondoggle that NeXT got stuck with for a while. The initial thinking as this stuff was being developed was the DSP would be great for audio. It's hard to remember this, but you cant really even play an MP3 on most black NeXT hardware. There is one app (that was removed at the time because of MP3 patent issues) that could do it on 68040 turbo systems (33mhz) ok. Some got it to kind of work on the 25mhz 040 as well, but you better be not running anything else. It would not work on the original l 68030 chips.

Anyway, the initial machines were being worked on the CPUs were still going to be pretty anemic in that regard (68020, 68030), so the 56001 would help with audio processing in part (and I believe escort later used it for their radar detectors touting NeXT technology, lol). It could do a bit more than that and there certainly were many cool apps that took advantage of itI believe there were even a couple of boards that hand multiple 56001's on it for doing really serious MusicKit stuff. For example, the old demo Mandelbrot.app could be run on the 030 or the 56001, and it would go way faster on the 56001.

The problem came as CPUs got way faster, the 56001 kind of stuck around for legacy app reasons and it was pretty slow and kind of was just extra expense. It went away when NeXT moved to intel and other processors.

What not many people remember, NeXT had 2 audio kits. One was the sound kit, which has somewhat morphed with the Mac into a much more mature kit. With it there were a few cool things at the time. NeXT had a native "CD" quality sound file format, and you could also compress losslessly to about half the size. Some of that playback and compression could be offloaded to the DSP. It was buggy as hell. But way before the iPod, I got hold of one of the first digital rip apps on NeXTstep. It could pump audio purely over the SCSI bus (back then the only way your PC played CD was over a by pass cable to your speakers and ripping audio was still copy-protected then, and little known, one of the first GUI rip apps was on NeXT). I remember ripping my CDs to the .snd files, compressed to half size and playing them off my magneto optical drive which could have well over 100 tracks on it. Kind of the 100 songs in your pocket thing. Getting the compression down in real time was VERY buggy from the rip and the DSP there was always iffy. They may have patched some of the bugs later, but by that time they were moving away from using the DSP as they saw it as a bit of a boat anchor.

Anyway, there was a super impressive pro MusicKit as well. It was SUPER cool. They ended up opensourcing and giving it to Stanford, which frankly let it languish and kind of die, which is a shame. It let you do really amazing synth music, with some amazing professional scoring apps, and it could employ the DSP quite well.

Anyway, the original M56001 came with all the black hardware, and basically just was omitted when white hardware came out. Although I do remember even for intel hardware, someone came out with a multiDSP board for more sophisticated MusicKit work.

One of the early interesting uses was basically the governments 3 letter agency used early NeXT for their "capture everything" tech that later became quite the scandal multiple times. NeXT sold around 50k units officially, but there was a bit of a black hole in numbers to those agencies, so there are probably a touch more than the official touted numbers. But, the DSP usage back when one would capture audio via glorified modem technology, faxes (those were still a thing and used the DSP to let you have cheaper fax modems hooked to a NeXT which could be network shared back then and was helpful for processing some of that data, no doubt), and electronic communications etc.

Anyway, not sure if that answered your question, but that's the top of head meandering recollection...it's been a bit of a while so of course, take it with grains of sand on dimming memory.
 
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Boil

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Oct 23, 2018
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Stargate Command

Sigh...

Frakking Max Tech...

That said, I would be down for a Space Black M4 Ultra Mac Studio, might be as close as we get to a Mac Pro Cube...?

If Apple could find a way to give us end-user upgradable RAM & storage, that would be ideal...

UMA RAM as another level of cache and DIMMs for large amounts of RAM...?

Allow OWC to make/sell NAND blades for storage and put two more storage slots into the Mac Studio...?

Whatever the future holds, AppleCare+ seems a must, as well as the end-user implementing a highly robust backup scheme...?
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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Sigh...

Frakking MaxTech...

That said, I would be down for a Space Black M4 Ultra Mac Studio, might be as close as we get to a Mac Pro Cube...?

If Apple could find a way to give us end-user upgradable RAM & storage, that would be ideal...

UMA RAM as another level of cache and DIMMs for large amounts of RAM...?

Allow OWC to make/sell NAND blades for storage and put two more storage slots into the Mac Studio...?

Whatever the future holds, AppleCare+ seems a must, as well as the end-user implementing a highly robust backup scheme...?

The Ultra 4 would also come out for the Mac Pro. I wonder if the ultra might not have the fusion connector and allow for an Extreme chip.
 

Boil

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Oct 23, 2018
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The Ultra 4 would also come out for the Mac Pro. I wonder if the ultra might not have the fusion connector and allow for an Extreme chip.

That puts us right back where the M2 Ultra is, with a bunch of redundant subsystems taking up die space...

How about the hypothetical M4 Ultra gets paired with a specific die that adds more GPU cores and memory controllers, maybe more Neural Engines as well...?
 

treehuggerpro

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Oct 21, 2021
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If Apple could find a way to give us end-user upgradable RAM & storage, that would be ideal...

UMA RAM as another level of cache and DIMMs for large amounts of RAM...?

I think this article, posted by @Antony Newman, puts some context around where Apple has been heading and why . . .



Eliyan is pitching their products and approach at the AI / servers markets, but Apple looks to be squarely aimed at leveraging the same approach.
 
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Boil

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Oct 23, 2018
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I think this article, posted by @Antony Newman, puts some context around where Apple has been heading and why . . .



Eliyan is pitching their products and approach at the AI / servers markets, but Apple looks to be squarely aimed at leveraging the same approach.

Yes, please...!
 

ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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That puts us right back where the M2 Ultra is, with a bunch of redundant subsystems taking up die space...

How about the hypothetical M4 Ultra gets paired with a specific die that adds more GPU cores and memory controllers, maybe more Neural Engines as well...?

Yes, but the reason to 'deal with the redundancy' is they can only fab the chips to be only so big on the die. The 3nm maybe lets them cram an ultra onto a single die, by reducing the fab to 3nm from 5, and by killing some redundant units.

But after a certain point, the only way to get a wafer big enough for an extreme, is to slap to chips together. Maybe by the time they get to 1.5nm they can squeeze what would be an extreme into a single die.

Dont get me wrong, I'm all for basically a big 2nd processor being a super duper GPU/Neural engine accelerator. That would be awesome too. But I'm not sure they would design such a specialty chip unless they could use it for a lot of devices.

Anyway, that's my pollyanna theory, which may easily be super wrong.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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For some reason I get the feeling this is happening at the cost of pro apple user defections.
 
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avkills

macrumors 65816
Jun 14, 2002
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For some reason I get the feeling this is happening at the cost of pro apple user defections.
Maybe in the big scientific fields; probably not in the content creation space other than 3D. Some flavor of *nix is almost always preferred by the scientific crowd.
 
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avro707

macrumors 68000
Dec 13, 2010
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So the whole thing about being more power efficient than x64, and how using less electricity was the overwhelming priority... we're just going to pretend that was never important? ;)
It was just an argument to use against the real Intel Mac Pros I feel and often used by those who probably weren’t ever going to buy a new Mac Pro anyway.
 

impulse462

macrumors 68020
Jun 3, 2009
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The DSP was cool until it wasn't. It was a bit of a boondoggle that NeXT got stuck with for a while. The initial thinking as this stuff was being developed was the DSP would be great for audio. It's hard to remember this, but you cant really even play an MP3 on most black NeXT hardware. There is one app (that was removed at the time because of MP3 patent issues) that could do it on 68040 turbo systems (33mhz) ok. Some got it to kind of work on the 25mhz 040 as well, but you better be not running anything else. It would not work on the original l 68030 chips.

Anyway, the initial machines were being worked on the CPUs were still going to be pretty anemic in that regard (68020, 68030), so the 56001 would help with audio processing in part (and I believe escort later used it for their radar detectors touting NeXT technology, lol). It could do a bit more than that and there certainly were many cool apps that took advantage of itI believe there were even a couple of boards that hand multiple 56001's on it for doing really serious MusicKit stuff. For example, the old demo Mandelbrot.app could be run on the 030 or the 56001, and it would go way faster on the 56001.

The problem came as CPUs got way faster, the 56001 kind of stuck around for legacy app reasons and it was pretty slow and kind of was just extra expense. It went away when NeXT moved to intel and other processors.

What not many people remember, NeXT had 2 audio kits. One was the sound kit, which has somewhat morphed with the Mac into a much more mature kit. With it there were a few cool things at the time. NeXT had a native "CD" quality sound file format, and you could also compress losslessly to about half the size. Some of that playback and compression could be offloaded to the DSP. It was buggy as hell. But way before the iPod, I got hold of one of the first digital rip apps on NeXTstep. It could pump audio purely over the SCSI bus (back then the only way your PC played CD was over a by pass cable to your speakers and ripping audio was still copy-protected then, and little known, one of the first GUI rip apps was on NeXT). I remember ripping my CDs to the .snd files, compressed to half size and playing them off my magneto optical drive which could have well over 100 tracks on it. Kind of the 100 songs in your pocket thing. Getting the compression down in real time was VERY buggy from the rip and the DSP there was always iffy. They may have patched some of the bugs later, but by that time they were moving away from using the DSP as they saw it as a bit of a boat anchor.

Anyway, there was a super impressive pro MusicKit as well. It was SUPER cool. They ended up opensourcing and giving it to Stanford, which frankly let it languish and kind of die, which is a shame. It let you do really amazing synth music, with some amazing professional scoring apps, and it could employ the DSP quite well.

Anyway, the original M56001 came with all the black hardware, and basically just was omitted when white hardware came out. Although I do remember even for intel hardware, someone came out with a multiDSP board for more sophisticated MusicKit work.

One of the early interesting uses was basically the governments 3 letter agency used early NeXT for their "capture everything" tech that later became quite the scandal multiple times. NeXT sold around 50k units officially, but there was a bit of a black hole in numbers to those agencies, so there are probably a touch more than the official touted numbers. But, the DSP usage back when one would capture audio via glorified modem technology, faxes (those were still a thing and used the DSP to let you have cheaper fax modems hooked to a NeXT which could be network shared back then and was helpful for processing some of that data, no doubt), and electronic communications etc.

Anyway, not sure if that answered your question, but that's the top of head meandering recollection...it's been a bit of a while so of course, take it with grains of sand on dimming memory.
wow! thanks for the very cool anecode/post! i can see why you really like workstations in general now since you worked at next haha.

thats honestly pretty insane about how the DSP became a bottleneck due to how fast chips were getting at the time-- i feel that nowadays, however, especially with chiplet designs, there will be multiple components on an SoC with different processes and the interconnect will have to take that into account.

additionally,its pretty sweet they were looking to do compression in realtime also; i know of a research group that has designed custom compression/decompression accelerators at least for FPGA implementations.

thanks for sharing
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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wow! thanks for the very cool anecode/post! i can see why you really like workstations in general now since you worked at next haha.

thats honestly pretty insane about how the DSP became a bottleneck due to how fast chips were getting at the time-- i feel that nowadays, however, especially with chiplet designs, there will be multiple components on an SoC with different processes and the interconnect will have to take that into account.

additionally,its pretty sweet they were looking to do compression in realtime also; i know of a research group that has designed custom compression/decompression accelerators at least for FPGA implementations.

thanks for sharing

Yea real time compression was a 'thing' that bit NeXT at least a couple of times. At least the DSP mostly worked for the soundKit .snd native compression.

NeXT had a big problem with the NeXTdimension board (a crazy awesome 32bit color 'display card' for the cube that ran it's own postscript window server and had video input so you could watch a video feed). It was supposed to have a C-cubed JPEG compression chip to do realtime video compression when it was launched. The announcements went out with that feature spec'd. However, only a few prototypes were made and the compression would never work. It would try to compress a few frames and crash everything on the card. So it shipped without it.

It was still an absolutely bats*** impressive card for its time. You could get 64MB of ram on it (insane for its day), and it moved 32bit windows around real time back in 1991. Nothing really came close until you got to SGI level workstations. Plus, NeXT had realtime renderman running on it then, and it ran disturbingly well for machines that relatively primitive. More insane, realtime renderman was a system level supported file type and library. The Workspace (ie finder) inspector could show you .rib files (like the teapot) and let you render/rotate in real time anywhere. It was a standard library so all apps got realtime renderman 'for free'.

One of the many things that was lobotomized and dumbed down in transition for the apple audience. S*** we still do not have a full processes panel from Workspace.app in the finder with the ability to pause/kill individual workspace processes (eg copying processes, compression processes, moving processes, folder merge processes etc), among many other cool/better NeXTstep things. Sigh.

Anyway, it's one of the few computers I sold that I made a profit on selling (it and the Mac ][fx were the only 2 computers I sold for a profit), and one of the few computers I regret having sold.
 
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mattspace

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Jun 5, 2013
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One of the many things that was lobotomized and dumbed down in transition for the apple audience.

I'll never not regret that Display Postscript's standard ability to run an app on one system, while presenting the UI and windowchrome on another was turfed in the OS X lobotomy.

The wort part of it, is when people say "but you can remote desktop in to the other machine", missing the point entirely.

Granted Apple would probably implement in a way where everything had to be on the same OS version.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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May 22, 2014
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I'll never not regret that Display Postscript's standard ability to run an app on one system, while presenting the UI and windowchrome on another was turfed in the OS X lobotomy.

The wort part of it, is when people say "but you can remote desktop in to the other machine", missing the point entirely.

Granted Apple would probably implement in a way where everything had to be on the same OS version.

I really miss display postscript. I get why they had to move away from it because it was a security nightmare. But in some small way it was very smalltalk like. You could mess with the realtime interpreter and melt the entire screen, mess with the UI, all live and on the fly.

I recently scanned in my old Adobe purple book.

1712900132638.png


Just really cool stuff.
 
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ZombiePhysicist

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Looks like updated M4 MPs and Studios are a year away.
In the meantime a $1,200 M3 MacBook Air will have 30% faster single core than the $7,000 M2 Ultra MP.


Yea, I find the report really interesting... and here is my speculation.

The M4Ultra has a fusion connector on it to allow for an M4Extreme.
 
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