Mac tax

[147798]

I bought a 13" MBP about a month ago. Lowest version off refurb. I think it was $999? (or was it $1099). Anyway, added 4GB RAM for $70 and a 500GB HDD for something like a $100. So, tops it was like $1300 thereabouts.

I read about the new laptops that are being released to support Win 7. Dropped into the HP site (can't stand Dell). Saw this nice looking laptop called "Envy13." Wow! Look what you get!

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/s...series_name=ENVY13_series&a1=Category&v1=ENVY

1.86C2D
3GB RAM
250GB HDD
13" non-LED screen
Built in webcam
Standard Battery
No optical drive (though blu ray is supported on an external)
Tiny Track pad
65W adapter
Dimensions 12.5" X 8.5" X 1", 3.68lbs (vs. 12.7" X 9" X 1", 4.5lbs for the MBP 13")

All for just $1699! $2200 if I configure it close to my MBP. What a deal! Am I missing something?? Is there a new "HP" or "Windows 7" tax??

Now, maybe they're saying it competes with the MBA, but the air can be had refurb for $1099 in similar specs to the HP base, and it's 3.0 lbs and only needs a 45W adapter.

 

[Drumjim85]

the apple tax has long been debated, and as far as I am concerned is just a myth now. Especially since the price drop in June. For what you get it's a very cost comparable machine. (and in this case, better)

 

[dukebound85]

Did you not even bother to read the specs???

You DO get a LED display and at better resolutions ( 1366 x 768 OR 1600 by 900) on a 13 in screen


also why did you leave out the fact that you get

Premium graphics: discrete ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4330 with 512MB dedicated and a battary that lasts 16.25 hrs as well as a hdmi port

seriously, if you are going to make a point, at least be honest about it

heck theres even an option for bluray...

with that said, if apple offered a similar lineup, you can bet your toosh its over 1699

since you conveniently neglected to point out any of the benefits, stop trying to get a rise out of people

 

[vant]

The 'apple tax' is long gone.

Machines such as the Adamo and the Envy have already proven that design costs $$$. Apple has always held design as a major priority these past years, reducing the prices of their industry leading designs.

 

[thegoldenmackid]

It exists, I would argue to a lesser extent then in the past, but it exists. Pointing out a specific instance in which the Mac wins or the PC wins is useless, there are just too many comparisons.

 

[147798]

You DO get a LED display


now why did you leave out the fact that you get

Premium graphics: discrete ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4330 with 512MB dedicated and a battary that lasts 16.25 hrs

serioulsy, if you are going to make a point, at least be honest about it

heck theres even an option for bluray...

with that said, if apple offered a similar lineup, you can bet you toosh its over 1699

LED is an OPTION, not part of the base. So, it's in the $2000+ config. MBP is already LED (afaik)

Didn't see the graphics or battery life. Not looking to mis-represent, so those are good points but where did you see 16 hrs battery life? You mean using the extended battery and swapping out externals? Seems like an absurd number.

So, in similar specs for an extra $900 you get a blue ray option and better graphics. Maybe important for some, but not my cup of tea.

 

[dukebound85]

LED is an OPTION, not part of the base. So, it's in the $2000+ config. MBP is already LED (afaik)

Didn't see the graphics or battery life. Not looking to mis-represent, so those are good points but where did you see 16 hrs battery life? You mean using the extended battery and swapping out externals? Seems like an absurd number.

So, in similar specs for an extra $900 you get a blue ray option and better graphics. Maybe important for some, but not my cup of tea.

the batt life number is on the overviews tab

LED is not an option, its the only configuration...

 

[147798]

It exists, I would argue to a lesser extent then in the past, but it exists. Pointing out a specific instance in which the Mac wins or the PC wins is useless, there are just too many comparisons.

I suppose I stepped in it. I was just genuinely surprised at the cost of the HP. Personally, I don't mean to say that the Mac is cheap, but that the HP seems overpriced.

There are certainly cheaper laptops than the MBP, but the MBP has a "premium" design and build, IMO, and if this is HP's answer, then you can clearly see -- premium PC laptops are just as expensive or more so than Macs. It's only if you want to downgrade components that you can save money (which makes sense) but doesn't represent an Apple tax -- but rather just fewer low-cost options.

 

[147798]

the batt life number is on the overviews tab

LED is not an option, its the only configuration...

I clicked on the tab but still don't see it. No laptop can run 16 hours on a single battery, so it's got to be accounting for having a back-up (which the MBP clearly doesn't have an option for).

 

[dukebound85]

I clicked on the tab but still don't see it. No laptop can run 16 hours on a single battery, so it's got to be accounting for having a back-up (which the MBP clearly doesn't have an option for).

how do you not see this...its on the link YOU provided

the battery life is not accounting for a backup and you can only get a LED display (with higher resolutions than apples 13 inch options by the way)

the long batt life is most likely a result of using a slower cpu (which most people would rather have if you can get longer batt life), esp with a 13 in laptop

 

[fibrizo]

I bought a 13" MBP about a month ago. Lowest version off refurb. I think it was $999? (or was it $1099). Anyway, added 4GB RAM for $70 and a 500GB HDD for something like a $100. So, tops it was like $1300 thereabouts.

I read about the new laptops that are being released to support Win 7. Dropped into the HP side (can't stand Dell). Saw this nice looking laptop called "Envy13" -- 13" laptop. Holy Cow, look what you get!

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/s...series_name=ENVY13_series&a1=Category&v1=ENVY

1.86C2D
3GB RAM
250GB HDD
13" non-LED screen
Built in webcam
Standard Battery
No optical drive (though blu ray is supported on an external)
Tiny Track pad
65W adapter
Dimensions 12.5" X 8.5" X 1", 3.68lbs (vs. 12.7" X 9" X 1", 4.5lbs for the MBP 13")

All for just $1699! $2200 if I configure it close to my MBP. What a deal! Am I missing something?? Is there a new "HP" or "Windows 7" tax??

Now, maybe they're saying it competes with the MBA, but the air can be had refurb for $1099 in similar specs to the HP base, and it's 3.0 lbs and only needs a 45W adapter.

Sigh not another thread like this. Honestly you CANNOT compare refurb to new. Refurbished may be just like new, but it is that. To make a decent logical comparison you have to compare apples to apples (pardon the pun). We won't compare educational discounts because again, it's special. Some times HP will have a huge coupon sale... ie 500$ off etc. You will never see that with Apple.

The Envy 13 you speak of, is aimed at macbook air due to the 3.7 lb wt and no integrated drive. it is 1699.

Let's compare them side by side

MBA Low end ENVY 13 Default low end Winner
Price 1499 1699 MBA
Processor 1.86 ghz 1.86ghz Tie
Graphics 9400m integrated ATI mobility 4330 w/512mb ENVY
Ram 2GB 3GB (option for 5GB) ENVY
HD 1.8 inch 120gb 2.5inch 250GB ENVY
Display 1280 x800 LED 1366x768 LED Tie
Cam yes yes Tie
Wireless N+bluetooth N+Bluetooth Tie
Keyboard Backlit Not Backlit MBA
Ports USB,Disp,audio 2USB, HDMI, audio, memory card ENVY
OS OSX Windows 7 MBA
Battery up to 5 hours up to 16.25w/ huge batt Tie

Now looking at it, the ENVY wins. I know tons of people are waiting for apple to add RAM, and a second usb port would be dandy... and HDMI, I can say that quite a few people have purchased a displayport to hdmi adapter.

The envy has more options for ram, and the higher res desplay would be nice. Not having a backlit keyboard kinda sux. (there's an option for SSD too)
Comparitively I would say it is not overpriced at all. It just shows up some of the MBA's weakenesses, and emphasizes it's strengths.


If you want to compare to your 13 MBP, the base model is 1199. It's closes competitor is the Sony SR series. the sony SR series is 4.4 lbs. I won't bore you with the MBP specs as you know them.


SR-590 CTO closest I could easily get as 1179
Core 2 Duo P8800 2.66ghz
500 gb 7200 rpm drive
4gb of DDR2 800 ( slower I know)
ATI mobility Radeon 4570 w/ 512mb of VRAM
6.5 hours on standard battery, 9.5 if you get extended.

VGA port (divided on if this is worse, since I had to pick up a mini display port to VGA adapter from apple to do presentations. It does sneak in an expresscard slot with a sd/memory stick card slot. All the wireless,bluetooth is the same, and it has a modem (for those people who still need this, I pity you.) A useless biometric fingerprint sensor. It does not have a backlit keyboard. ( a ding)

so comparitively, spec wise there's still a tax. Just remember Apple makes a significant profit on every piece of hardware. PC makers have smaller margins.

Not that I don't like my 13 inch mbp. But I have to set the facts straight.

 

[vant]

The Envy 13 you speak of, is aimed at macbook air due to the 3.7 lb wt and no integrated drive. it is 1699.

Let's compare them side by side

MBA Low end ENVY 13 Default low end Winner
Price 1499 1699 MBA
Processor 1.86 ghz 1.86ghz Tie
Graphics 9400m integrated ATI mobility 4330 w/512mb ENVY
Ram 2GB 3GB (option for 5GB) ENVY
HD 1.8 inch 120gb 2.5inch 250GB ENVY
Display 1280 x800 LED 1366x768 LED Tie
Cam yes yes Tie
Wireless N+bluetooth N+Bluetooth Tie
Keyboard Backlit Not Backlit MBA
Ports USB,Disp,audio 2USB, HDMI, audio, memory card ENVY
OS OSX Windows 7 MBA
Battery up to 5 hours up to 16.25w/ huge batt Tie

Now looking at it, the ENVY wins. I know tons of people are waiting for apple to add RAM, and a second usb port would be dandy... and HDMI, I can say that quite a few people have purchased a displayport to hdmi adapter.

Wow. The ENVY wins your crappy comparison.

Lets add weight (MBA), dimensions (MBA), design (MBA), resale (MBA), etc.

Well I guess the MBA wins!

The point I'm making is that you can't judge a laptop by it's specs. In reviews, the ENVY has already been criticized for having poor inputs. Where is that on the spec sheet?

 

[147798]

Honestly you CANNOT compare refurb to new. Refurbished may be just like new, but it is that.

Honestly, yes I can because all that matters is total cost to own. If HP has a refurb program in the same vein, then it would be right to compare that instead of brand new.

Clearly I got a bunch of people's panties in a bunch (which, frankly, turned out to be kind of fun, though it was unintentional!), but this was my whole point;

I always heard of a "mac tax" and just assumed it to be true. Maybe it was in the past (I don't really care, to be honest) But I would say that it's only true now in this -- you can get inferior build, etc. and pay less, by getting a cheaper PC laptop of a type not available through Apple, but if you want nearly the same equivalency, Apple is no more expensive. You do, however, have to live with Apple's narrow choices -- which you may or may not want to do. (eg. no BlueRay, but yes very nice integrated battery and a fantastic trackpad).

Now you can un-bunch your panties before you get to sleep tonight. Sleeping with wedgies is never very comfortable from what I've heard.

Ciao!

 

[fibrizo]

Honestly, yes I can because all that matters is total cost to own. If HP has a refurb program in the same vein, then it would be right to compare that instead of brand new.

Clearly I got a bunch of people's panties in a bunch (which, frankly, turned out to be kind of fun, though it was unintentional!), but this was my whole point;

I always heard of a "mac tax" and just assumed it to be true. Maybe it was in the past (I don't really care, to be honest) But I would say that it's only true now in this -- you can get inferior build, etc. and pay less, by getting a cheaper PC laptop of a type not available through Apple, but if you want nearly the same equivalency, Apple is no more expensive. You do, however, have to live with Apple's narrow choices -- which you may or may not want to do. (eg. no BlueRay, but yes very nice integrated battery and a fantastic trackpad).

Now you can un-bunch your panties before you get to sleep tonight. Sleeping with wedgies is never very comfortable from what I've heard.

Ciao!

Funny, that people always take these as attacks on macs. I have nothing against them. I own one. If you didn't own or plan on owning one, then these are probably the wrong forums to be on. If you have nothing to add other than personal attacks, then it's not worth the post.

I pointed out that HP, along with other companies will often steeply discount products with coupons or promotions, which apple does not do. You will find this laptop on sale for 500$ less at times. As for the "Crappy" MBA comparison, I never stated that I actually thought the ENVY was better. I wanted to point out that if you go by pure specs, it looks better on paper. Now if apple implemented the same thing would it be better? Most likely yes.

The key here is A. Apple makes a larger margin profit on every machine they make basically. And since I'm very sure that apple isn't getting a larger volume discount than say Dell or HP, then they are charging you more for less in terms of hardware. Hence they have a huge profit this quarter.

As for getting "panties in a bunch" or what not, Some of us, don't like ignorance, lack of objective thought, and a smug belief in the superiority of a brand. If you cannot objectively analyze an issue and you want some "yes men" to come along and say "Dood, you are so right, apple rox, pc sux, everything we do is so much better, and there are no flaws" and blindly follow ideological beliefs without a second though... I have a great place for you.

Link

Enjoy.

 

[vant]

As for the "Crappy" MBA comparison, I never stated that I actually thought the ENVY was better. I wanted to point out that if you go by pure specs, it looks better on paper. Now if apple implemented the same thing would it be better? Most likely yes.

I think you will find that Apple is not concerned with competing with PCs on the spec sheet level. Their battle is on the design and software front.

 

[dukebound85]

Honestly, yes I can because all that matters is total cost to own. If HP has a refurb program in the same vein, then it would be right to compare that instead of brand new.

Clearly I got a bunch of people's panties in a bunch (which, frankly, turned out to be kind of fun, though it was unintentional!), but this was my whole point;

I always heard of a "mac tax" and just assumed it to be true. Maybe it was in the past (I don't really care, to be honest) But I would say that it's only true now in this -- you can get inferior build, etc. and pay less, by getting a cheaper PC laptop of a type not available through Apple, but if you want nearly the same equivalency, Apple is no more expensive. You do, however, have to live with Apple's narrow choices -- which you may or may not want to do. (eg. no BlueRay, but yes very nice integrated battery and a fantastic trackpad).

Now you can un-bunch your panties before you get to sleep tonight. Sleeping with wedgies is never very comfortable from what I've heard.

Ciao!

lol my issue was that you dont even compare then correctly AT ALL

the envy has LED (with higher resolutions) and a much better batt yet you flat out write that it doesnt have led

i couldnt care less about brands but when people make arguments by being biased and using wrong info is what irritates me

Funny, that people always take these as attacks on macs. I have nothing against them. I own one. If you didn't own or plan on owning one, then these are probably the wrong forums to be on. If you have nothing to add other than personal attacks, then it's not worth the post.

I pointed out that HP, along with other companies will often steeply discount products with coupons or promotions, which apple does not do. You will find this laptop on sale for 500$ less at times. As for the "Crappy" MBA comparison, I never stated that I actually thought the ENVY was better. I wanted to point out that if you go by pure specs, it looks better on paper. Now if apple implemented the same thing would it be better? Most likely yes.

The key here is A. Apple makes a larger margin profit on every machine they make basically. And since I'm very sure that apple isn't getting a larger volume discount than say Dell or HP, then they are charging you more for less in terms of hardware. Hence they have a huge profit this quarter.

As for getting "panties in a bunch" or what not, Some of us, don't like ignorance, lack of objective thought, and a smug belief in the superiority of a brand. If you cannot objectively analyze an issue and you want some "yes men" to come along and say "Dood, you are so right, apple rox, pc sux, everything we do is so much better, and there are no flaws" and blindly follow ideological beliefs without a second though... I have a great place for you.

Link

Enjoy.

i agree. i have multiple macs myself. i just dont blindly support apple as some do

op: next time you want to coompare, make it unbiased and honest for you to have ANY credibility

I think you will find that Apple is not concerned with competing with PCs on the spec sheet level. Their battle is on the design and software front.

that was not the basis for this thread

its not like the envy is poory designed or windows 7 is bad either.....

its just not apple, but that doesnt mean its worse than apple

 

[kryptonianjorel]

lol my issue was that you dont even compare then correctly AT ALL

the envy has LED (with higher resolutions) and a much better batt yet you flat out write that it doesnt have led

i couldnt care less about brands but when people make arguments by being biased and using wrong info is what irritates me



i agree. i have multiple macs myself. i just dont blindly support apple as some do

op: next time you want to coompare, make it unbiased and honest for you to have ANY credibility


that was not the basis for this thread

its not like the envy is poory designed or windows 7 is bad either.....

its just not apple, but that doesnt mean its worse than apple

Go check engadgets review of the Envy 13.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/05/hp-envy-13-review/

since you probably wont, heres a quote:

"One of the most interesting aspects of the Envy 13 is the optional slice battery, which promises to more than double the battery life of the computer"

The "16 hour" battery is only via the extra battery that attaches to the bottom of the entire laptop, both killing its weight class and its thickness.

When properly configured, the laptop cost over $2000, and even then only has the advantage of the newer graphics chip. Engadget concluded that the trackpad was absolutely horrible and that it left them with mixed impressions of the machine altogether.

HP took a page out of apple's book, but they certainly didn't add anything to it. At least they made a step in the right direction.