MDD starting OK but power button on monitor flashing

[yawg]

Hi,

My old MDD (2 GB RAM running Tiger with two monitors) is starting up normally. But since yesterday my Mac shows a blinking power button on the monitor only (the 17-inch Apple display which is my secondary monitor - my main display is a Samsung HD digital TV). The blinking cycle is two times short one time longer and then 5 seconds pause.

When the blinking started the Apple display has become somewhat darker on top, it gets lighter gradually down to the bottom. Do I have to get another 17-inch Apple display? Or change my graphics card?

Has anybody had a similar experience? What does it mean? Thanks for all comments.

Jörg from the Netherlands.

Update: I just noticed that the brightness of the Apple display with the blinking button is normal for a split second when I move the mouse during power saving mode when both displays are black. Then the 17-inch display gets dark again on top. So the display seems to be OK. Maybe there is not enough energy coming from the ADC port when both displays are active?

 

[eyoungren]

Hi,

My old MDD (2 GB RAM running Tiger with two monitors) is starting up normally. But since yesterday my Mac shows a blinking power button on the monitor only (the 17-inch Apple display which is my secondary monitor - my main display is a Samsung HD digital TV). The blinking cycle is two times short one time longer and then 5 seconds pause.

When the blinking started the Apple display has become somewhat darker on top, it gets lighter gradually down to the bottom. Do I have to get another 17-inch Apple display? Or change my graphics card?

Has anybody had a similar experience? What does it mean? Thanks for all comments.

Jörg from the Netherlands.

Update: I just noticed that the brightness of the Apple display with the blinking button is normal for a split second when I move the mouse during power saving mode when both displays are black. Then the 17-inch display gets dark again on top. So the display seems to be OK. Maybe there is not enough energy coming from the ADC port when both displays are active?

It's an issue with the backlight.

I have had the exact same thing with my 20" Cinema Display and here is what do when it happens.

Keep the monitor lit and use the Mac for a while (at least 30 minues) so that the monitor stays on.

Pull the connector out of the display card. Wait a second or two, reinsert. If the display still blinks, wait and repeat. You may have to do this a few times.

If it works you'll notice the backlight is back on correctly.

I've found that it seems to happen more if the display is allowed to cool or not be powered on for some time. I leave my Macs on usually and I have also found that when I leave the computer if I leave a white webpage up (usually MacRumors) when I return I don't have any issues.

This has been my experience anyway.

It may be due to power as well, IDK. I've noticed this has happened a lot less with my Quad then it did with my with Quicksilver.

 

[yawg]

Hi,

It's an issue with the backlight.

I have had the exact same thing with my 20" Cinema Display and here is what do when it happens.

Keep the monitor lit and use the Mac for a while (at least 30 minues) so that the monitor stays on.

Pull the connector out of the display card. Wait a second or two, reinsert. If the display still blinks, wait and repeat. You may have to do this a few times.

If it works you'll notice the backlight is back on correctly.

I've found that it seems to happen more if the display is allowed to cool or not be powered on for some time. I leave my Macs on usually and I have also found that when I leave the computer if I leave a white webpage up (usually MacRumors) when I return I don't have any issues.

This has been my experience anyway.

It may be due to power as well, IDK. I've noticed this has happened a lot less with my Quad then it did with my with Quicksilver.

Thanks a lot for your comment. I tried your fix but it didn't work. I realized that the fans in my MDD spun a lot faster when I pulled the display plug so I fear that the PSU of my Mac is fading.

Again, as I already had two bad Samsung PSUs in my MDD, actually 3 because I had one of them re-capped with "better caps" by a German company who gave a 3-year warranty. But the thing died again after that period.

The one I got now has the other non-Samsung PSU which has a couple more watts. The Samsungs died at once and this one seems to die slowly.

I could go on using only my main monitor, the Samsung TV as it doesn't draw extra power like the Apple display does. I have a full "deck" of cards in all PCI slots that I need. What happens to my apps like Photoshop etc. of which the palettes are on the Apple display now? Will they default back to the main/only display?

Or I try to get me another MDD in time for cheap. I only paid 25 € for this one delivery included. I like it a lot, a dual 1.25 GHz. Oh well ...

Any more suggestions anybody? What would be the best (reliable) G5 to go to? Are they less noisy than these "wind tunnels"?

Thanks!

 

[eyoungren]

Hi,



Thanks a lot for your comment. I tried your fix but it didn't work. I realized that the fans in my MDD spun a lot faster when I pulled the display plug so I fear that the PSU of my Mac is fading.

Again, as I already had two bad Samsung PSUs in my MDD, actually 3 because I had one of them re-capped with "better caps" by a German company who gave a 3-year warranty. But the thing died again after that period.

The one I got now has the other non-Samsung PSU which has a couple more watts. The Samsungs died at once and this one seems to die slowly.

I could go on using only my main monitor, the Samsung TV as it doesn't draw extra power like the Apple display does. I have a full "deck" of cards in all PCI slots that I need. What happens to my apps like Photoshop etc. of which the palettes are on the Apple display now? Will they default back to the main/only display?

Or I try to get me another MDD in time for cheap. I only paid 25 € for this one delivery included. I like it a lot, a dual 1.25 GHz. Oh well ...

Any more suggestions anybody? What would be the best (reliable) G5 to go to? Are they less noisy than these "wind tunnels"?

Thanks!

Yeah, it's probably your PSU then as the ADC port does draw electricity to power the display.

I'm using the ADC>DVI adapters for mine with my G5 so I don't have to worry about that.

As to what happens to your palettes on a single display they may revert or they may not. I've had both things happen. If you can, I'd move them before you disconnect the other display.

Don't toss the display though. If the problem is only power then it'll still work. You might want to search for a different video card and an A1006 (which is the ADC>DVI adapter).

 

[yawg]

Yeah, it's probably your PSU then as the ADC port does draw electricity to power the display.

I'm using the ADC>DVI adapters for mine with my G5 so I don't have to worry about that.

As to what happens to your palettes on a single display they may revert or they may not. I've had both things happen. If you can, I'd move them before you disconnect the other display.

Don't toss the display though. If the problem is only power then it'll still work. You might want to search for a different video card and an A1006 (which is the ADC>DVI adapter).

I can get an almost new 17-inch Apple display with the ADC to DVI converter quite cheap and still keep my current 17-incher.

What is your best bet if I decide to "upgrade" to a G5? I heard horror stories about them, leaking liquid cooling systems etc.

TenFourFox would also get a speed boost I reckon. I'm an older guy and don't like too many changes. Could I migrate to a G5 and keep my current config, Tiger? Maybe Leopard wouldn't be too steep a learning curve haha. At least I would get some apps back which were discontinued for Tiger. Does Skype still work with Leopard? How about Dropbox? I missed those ...

 

[eyoungren]

I can get an almost new 17-inch Apple display with the ADC to DVI converter quite cheap and still keep my current 17-incher.

What is your best bet if I decide to "upgrade" to a G5? I heard horror stories about them, leaking liquid cooling systems etc.

TenFourFox would also get a speed boost I reckon. I'm an older guy and don't like too many changes. Could I migrate to a G5 and keep my current config, Tiger? Maybe Leopard wouldn't be too steep a learning curve haha. At least I would get some apps back which were discontinued for Tiger. Does Skype still work with Leopard? How about Dropbox? I missed those ...

The liquid cooling used to be my biggest fear. However, I now own two liquid cooled G5s and both are functioning well.

Most of the systems that would fail have done so by now. But, if air cooling is your game I would suggest a 2.3Ghz Dual Core G5. I have one of those and they are superb. You can max those out to 16GB of ram and they have PCI-e slots which allow for modern cards.

The G5s are capable of Tiger and by all reports I've heard it runs very well. I had issues with it when using our work G5 but they were mainly network related.

There isn't much to learn between Leopard and Tiger though. It's mainly under the hood improvements and a UI lift. But it does allow for more modern apps. I prefer it's network features over Tiger as they are more robust.

I'm not sure if Skype still works. The last I heard it was audio only.

As far as Dropbox if you scan to the top of the forums you will find a thread about it on PowerPC. You need to be running Leopard though.

 

[yawg]

There's still one more thought. I also have two HDs from which I can boot into Jaguar. This is handy if I want to use old apps on OS9. Tiger doesn't support some of those like some older Adobe apps or Quark. Could I still boot into Jaguar on a G5? I just saw an advert that tried to sell original Jaguar CDs saying they were G3/G4/G5.

 

[eyoungren]

There's still one more thought. I also have two HDs from which I can boot into Jaguar. This is handy if I want to use old apps on OS9. Tiger doesn't support some of those like some older Adobe apps or Quark. Could I still boot into Jaguar on a G5? I just saw an advert that tried to sell original Jaguar CDs saying they were G3/G4/G5.

I highly doubt Jaguar, although it's possible there was some final version that shipped with the very early G5s.

But anything released in 2005-2006 is not going to run Jag.

The G5 we have at work is a late 2004 model and it shipped with Panther 10.3.something.

 

[weckart]

Could I still boot into Jaguar on a G5? I just saw an advert that tried to sell original Jaguar CDs saying they were G3/G4/G5.

No. The last generation G5s shipped with 10.4.2 and will not boot anything earlier.
The last PowerMac to boot Jaguar was the first generation of G5s, which shipped with 10.2.7 but you lose some of the advantages of the last generation: PCI-X slots instead of PCIe, for example. At least you can reuse your PCI cards.

 

[yawg]

So PCIe are compatible with PCI? I need to keep my Adaptec SCSI card for my scanner. Don't need my M-Audio Revolution as the G5s all have optical audio in and out.

Heard that the G5s are very power hungry, ± 300W. But the PSUs are reliable? Are they less noisy as my MDD 1.25 Dual with Papst fans?

I removed my ADC display and everything is running smoothly now, the fans are steady and the average CPU temp. is almost 10 centigrades lower.

I'm still looking for a fast G5 to build up for a worst case scenario ...

Best regards, Jörg.

 

[weckart]

So PCIe are compatible with PCI?

No. PCI-X is a 64 bit extended PCI slot running at 133MHz. PCI slots are typically 32 bit running at 33MHz although the MDD has regular sized 64 bit PCI slots running at 66MHz. Some PCI-X cards can work in the MDD’s slots with part of the card extending past the end of the slot. Most PCI cards should work in the PCI-X slots but the PCI-X bus will clock down to the slowest component attached.

PCIe is a different form factor altogether and incompatible with either PCI or PCI-X.

 

[AphoticD]

Can anyone confirm if an Adaptec PCI SCSI card would work in a PCI-X G5? My understanding was that PCI and PCI-X were not compatible.

There were a handful of G5 models which were built with compatibility in mind and had regular (older style) PCI slots.

Checking Mactracker shows the following 4 models of G5 each had 3x PCI (64-bit 33Mhz) slots and didn’t use the PCI-X format:

• Original 2003 single 1.6Ghz G5 (model M9020, PowerMac 7,2)
• 2004 Dual 1.8Ghz (model M9454, PowerMac7,3)
• Late 2004 Single 1.8Ghz (model M9555, PowerMac 9,1)
• Early 2005 Dual 2.0Ghz (model M9747, PowerMac 7,2)

Of these models, only the original 2003 model will boot Jaguar and all of them can run Tiger.

All other models used PCI-X until the final revision in late 2005, which switched to PCIe, which is different again.

Also note that any single CPU config will consume less power than the dual CPU units.

So keep a close eye on the model details when you are purchasing to ensure compatibility.

-AphoticD

 

[AphoticD]

So PCIe are compatible with PCI? I need to keep my Adaptec SCSI card for my scanner. Don't need my M-Audio Revolution as the G5s all have optical audio in and out.

Heard that the G5s are very power hungry, ± 300W. But the PSUs are reliable? Are they less noisy as my MDD 1.25 Dual with Papst fans?

I removed my ADC display and everything is running smoothly now, the fans are steady and the average CPU temp. is almost 10 centigrades lower.

I'm still looking for a fast G5 to build up for a worst case scenario ...

Best regards, Jörg.

The G5’s are noisy under load, but I have never owned a MDD so I couldn’t compare. My understanding was that the MDD (Wind-tunnel) was one of the loudest Macs built.

I have owned 3 G5’s and have never had a problem with the PSUs. And yes they can draw a lot of power if they run a heavy load.

See my post here for some power consumption results of the G5s:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/real-world-powerpc-energy-consumption.2076908/

Some G5s were more power efficient, these were the 970fx series. My two older G5s are not of the 'fx' variety. I believe that in the earlier list of PCI-capable G5s, they will all make use of the lower-power 970fx CPU except for the original 2003 model.

 

[eyoungren]

The G5’s are noisy under load,…

This is one thing I've never noticed and I've used a range of G5's from 2003 to 2006 models.

Sure, fans can ramp up if you are booting from a Diskwarrior DVD say, but I've never heard them full blast or even remotely elevated unless there has been some sort of problem.

But I don't work in a studio so maybe that's the difference. That and the fact that since 1980 I've probably grown used to the sound of computer fans, LOL.

 

[AphoticD]

This and your other post on the energy consumption thread both make a good point.

Keeping your ambient temps down through use of A/C would make a big difference to reducing running noise. Plus if you have an A/C in the same room, with the control unit close by your desk, the room’s ambient noise is much higher and your ears will filter out the A/C and any other fan noise or humming within the same dB and frequency range. You may not even notice the G5 running even if it has ramped up a little under load.

I can say that in my ceiling fan cooled, non-A/C home studio, with both my ‘08 Mac Pro and ‘05 G5 running side by side, they are practically inaudible under the desk while I’m using them under normal load. So long as the ambient temps are under 30C. Whereas the ‘03 G5s have a noticeable idle hum (lots of air noise blowing through them). I can’t say if other G5s fall into either category or somewhere in between.

The big difference is when putting some strain on them. All G5s have the capacity to variably adjust the speed of their 9 (or more) fans and when pushed past comfortable temps, they will ramp up every fan until it is about as loud as a small vacuum cleaner.

The Mac Pro on the other hand has never ramped up it’s audible operation, no matter how much work I throw at it. Out of interest, I used MacsFanControl to manually set all the MPs fans to Max and boy this thing blows away the G5. It is nearly as loud as an outdoor leaf blower! I got a little scared and quickly put it all back on auto, within seconds it was back down to zero noise. The main exhaust sits on about 550-600rpm most of the time. Compare this to the high-rpm, twin-exhaust on the G5s.

I guess the point is; Yes, the G5 runs loud (and hot) compared to a Mac mini or Intel iMac, but it’s not totally off the charts compared to how noisy some Macs were back in the early 90s. Before they had variable-speed fans and everything from CPU voltage, HDD spin and PSU/CPU cooling just ran at maximum draw constantly.

 

[eyoungren]

This and your other post on the energy consumption thread both make a good point.

Keeping your ambient temps down through use of A/C would make a big difference to reducing running noise. Plus if you have an A/C in the same room, with the control unit close by your desk, the room’s ambient noise is much higher and your ears will filter out the A/C and any other fan noise or humming within the same dB and frequency range. You may not even notice the G5 running even if it has ramped up a little under load.

I can say that in my ceiling fan cooled, non-A/C home studio, with both my ‘08 Mac Pro and ‘05 G5 running side by side, they are practically inaudible under the desk while I’m using them under normal load. So long as the ambient temps are under 30C. Whereas the ‘03 G5s have a noticeable idle hum (lots of air noise blowing through them). I can’t say if other G5s fall into either category or somewhere in between.

The big difference is when putting some strain on them. All G5s have the capacity to variably adjust the speed of their 9 (or more) fans and when pushed past comfortable temps, they will ramp up every fan until it is about as loud as a small vacuum cleaner.

The Mac Pro on the other hand has never ramped up it’s audible operation, no matter how much work I throw at it. Out of interest, I used MacsFanControl to manually set all the MPs fans to Max and boy this thing blows away the G5. It is nearly as loud as an outdoor leaf blower! I got a little scared and quickly put it all back on auto, within seconds it was back down to zero noise. The main exhaust sits on about 550-600rpm most of the time. Compare this to the high-rpm, twin-exhaust on the G5s.

I guess the point is; Yes, the G5 runs loud (and hot) compared to a Mac mini or Intel iMac, but it’s not totally off the charts compared to how noisy some Macs were back in the early 90s. Before they had variable-speed fans and everything from CPU voltage, HDD spin and PSU/CPU cooling just ran at maximum draw constantly.

I would really like to put all my Macs out in the garage where my space is, but that space is only usable for three seasons of the year and one of those seasons you're wearing heavy coats.

But despite being contained in a dark space the heat would just kill those running Macs, even with liquid cooling and I'd probably find them all dead at some point. So, they stay inside where central air keeps the temps even.

I did notice though that the loudest fan in my Quad is from the video card.The Quad had been silent before I installed that card.

Getting used to my MBP was a task. PowerPC laptops only turn their fans on when it gets hot enough. MBPs always have their fans running so I was certain there was something wrong. Of course there isn't.

I do have smcFanControl installed on my MBP and my normal operating setting for the fans is around 3000rpm. Keeps the Mac inside a decent temp range and is silent enough (for me) to not hear too much. I'll bump it up if I am playing video though and the Mac likes to hit around 160-170º when playing tasked like that.

For my Quad though I usually have to check iStats to see if fans are ramped up. Normally the rpm is somewhere in the 1200-1800rpm range for the slots intake. Higher than that I know somethings going on (usually some process that's locked up).

 

[mp2017]

Can anyone confirm if an Adaptec PCI SCSI card would work in a PCI-X G5? My understanding was that PCI and PCI-X were not compatible.

PCI-X is an eXtensionm to PCI and should be backwards compatible with PCI cards. It's PCIe which is not compatible with PCI.

 

[AphoticD]

PCI-X is an eXtensionm to PCI and should be backwards compatible with PCI cards. It's PCIe which is not compatible with PCI.

I’ve read in a few places that it should be compatible. But, it seems to be one of those intermediate technologies which didn’t get a lot of case-study coverage.

Adaptec did a PCI-X SCSI card to suit the G5s which makes me think that maybe the PCI cards weren’t compatible. Either that or the X variant was marketed as faster and better to upsell existing G4 converts.

 

[weckart]

The MDD has PCI slots which can take a PCI-X card entirely. The cards will just clock down to MDD speeds.

 

[AphoticD]

The MDD has PCI slots which can take a PCI-X card entirely. The cards will just clock down to MDD speeds.

And the reverse case? It sounds like the general consensus is that the PCI cards will (should) work in the G5’s PCI-X slot.

If this is the case, why would Apple release 4 unique PCI-only logic boards over the course of 2 years and not simply use the more advanced, faster, and possibly, backwards-compatible PCI-X slots?

Apple have often maintained hardware in this step-forward/step-back fashion to accommodate the Pro users who would have jumped up and down due to having invested in hardware/software which is obsoleted due to newer standards. Such as the final MDD’s backflip of a re-release for OS9 compatibility.

It’s curious!

 

[weckart]

If this is the case, why would Apple release 4 unique PCI-only logic boards over the course of 2 years and not simply use the more advanced, faster, and possibly, backwards-compatible PCI-X slots?

Only the G5s had the requisite bus speed to make full use of PCI-X slots. Peripherals for the latter were few and far between and very expensive - typically server stuff. I remember the comments when the G5 came out. It seems it was only a stopgap until Apple made PCIe work.

In a similar backwards compatible vein, I have a HP server with dual Xeons that HP were selling at well below cost price. Mine became a Snow Leopard server while others leapt on it hoping to make a super fast, super cheap gaming rig. Unfortunately, it was blessed with four x8 PCIe lanes but not a single x16. x8 cards existed but were rare so I took a PCIe x16 nVidia 8400GS and cut off the surplus lanes. It worked but sadly not at x8 speeds. The damn HP bios detected graphic cards and automatically clocked them down to x1 speeds.

 

[mp2017]

I’ve read in a few places that it should be compatible. But, it seems to be one of those intermediate technologies which didn’t get a lot of case-study coverage.

Adaptec did a PCI-X SCSI card to suit the G5s which makes me think that maybe the PCI cards weren’t compatible. Either that or the X variant was marketed as faster and better to upsell existing G4 converts.

The PCI-X standard means they should be compatible. Implementation details might prevent certain configurations from working.