Sesshi said:
Yes I think I resorted to it because especially for many Americans and to a lesser extent, Europeans the fact that things are made in China automatically ramps down the quality regardless of the actual item. I'm asking for evidence of the fact that outsourcing has lead to a decrease in quality for what these guys make, not if it's made in China. When you outsource, if you want to preserve the quality of your goods you run the QC process. e.g. Few are complaining about the fit and finish of the millions of iPods sold so far. I am thinking that any manufacturer with an established name would do that. I'm not arguing for or against the ethics or other factors of manufacturing in China - businesses do what they can to stay in business.
The very fact that while chiding me you would bring up an article which merely mentions that manufacture has moved to China also indicates the way YOU think.
You believe QC isn't affected by ramping up production xX amount, in a factory far far away? Rather than (as timbuk once did) having all of your raw materials drop shipped to and constructed in a factory below your sales office?
Well T2 customers, through the years, have seen it's quality drop. Check anywhere you want, messengers that used the bags since one of their own formed the company almost 2 decades ago have seen it's quality drop and only those bound by financial considerations use timbuk products anymore (it's easy to get a free one from a friend).
timbuk also claims to make the bags in SF still, but they do all sub-assembly off-shore, the only sewing going on in SF is stiching together the 3 panels so you can think you have a custom bag.
The prices have remained consistent at least. timbuk bags are cheap. However the price remained the same despite the shift off-shore.
And china is better than vietnam, where crumpler has their stuff made. better for quality and worker conditions if your concern is either, definitely pick timbuk instead of crumpler, crumpler uses fake & inferior Cordura copies for fabric, frays easy. They don't use the heavy thread that other use either, no need, since the fabric will fray before the cheap stiching gives out.
basically, among messenger bags, there have always been "messenger style" bags that call themselves messenger bags. Those are tote bags, they don't function well enough to be dependable, and never have even the basic features, like waterproofing (Crumpler isnt waterproof anymore, timbuk still is somewhat). Messengers wouldn't use them to keep an envelope dry, you want to keep a powerbook dry with that crap?
If that's what you want, goto "Ebags" and get a polyester satchel every 3 months.
The best construction techniques, the best materials, the most innovative designs, have always come from the street, tested there before you can buy it. Built in small workshops by people who invest themselves, not their money, into the product.
Timbuk started that way, stayed the course for years, Crumpler was that way for a few months, both have taken the Mcdonalds approach now, and it shows.
So, if you want a bag the is as tough as the job it does, to protect your goods, go for one of the small makers. for non-messengers these bags last literally forever. They aren't all in North America, there is one in Hungary that is making quality bags, and in Germany. The best are all Canadian for some reason. PAC is undisputedly the best toughness-wise, its closest rivals, actually they are friends, are Push the Envelope and Under the Weather. REload is really really good too. Zo is hard to get, and aren't as comfortable, haven't changed in 20 years, but his designs paved the way for the innovators. Chrome makes good standard bags (just outside of Denver, only the store is in SF), but they fray around the area where strap becomes bag, and use a less sturdy inner liner.
If you want something for status, again, pick from among the custom builders. If you want to save your money, pick from among the custom builders, they cost twice as much as a timbuk but will last much much longer and look better doing it. (Crumpler has prices to match the custom builders, but don't even use labour or materials on par with timbuk, according to messengers they last 6 months or so, really sad)
If you want comfort, pick from the custom builders, timbuk uses the same design it started with, which involves a straight, un-angled strap, no good for a bag designed at an angle.
If you want to avoid being percieved as anything but sheep, find flaws that got past the inspectors, find your strap falling off after a year (perfect if you like to get a new one every year) and help fill the landfills with consumercrap, by all means invest in a timbuk or crumpler.
They aren't messenger bags anymore. Guess who decides that? Messengers. It isn't a loyalty thing, it isn't a fashion thing, they only care if it works, many care about labour issues and trade issues just like anyone else, but when it comes time to go to work monday morning, they use what works best.
This subject is actually a great microcosm for the debates it always generates. Nike vs. the cobbler on the corner. Decide for yourself. For many products, you don't get a choice anymore. I had a friend write a great paper on it, the only thing a classmate ever wrote in that class that I enjoyed reading. He was going to blog it but, well, doesn't blog! he's weird
Don't believe me? Ask google to tell you what messengers think, the only ones that give timbuk more than a "used to be standard, no longer" rating have simply never used anything else, and have a pile of old timbuks to prove it.
the list at messengers.org has all the custom makers, as well as timbuk and crumpler.
