Microsoft v. the EU: Bill loses his appeal :)

[Blue Velvet]

Microsoft Corp. lost a European Union court appeal Wednesday against sanctions imposed by EU regulators that would force it to change business practices and sell a stripped-down version of Windows.

CNN

BBC


Although this is a slice of humble pie for Xmas, I can't imagine this slowing the MS juggernaut. Although it could be a way for others like Apple to leverage their tech onto Windows... what is at stake ultimately is broadband media control and distribution.

 

[garybUK]

It might slow down the adoption of MSN music store as its built into Media Player and in Europe that is no longer bundled with the OS means the user has to choose which media player to download, which could mean users goto Itunes or real's store.

 

[Blue Velvet]

It might slow down the adoption of MSN music store as its built into Media Player and in Europe that is no longer bundled with the OS means the user has to choose which media player to download, which could mean users goto Itunes or real's store.

Aaah... I hadn't seen that aspect of it being unfamiliar to XP.
Just use Win2000 for my work emails & calendar... the real work is done on a Mac.

They will probably appeal against this appeals' ruling -- slow down the whole thing while they come up with something new...

 

[garybUK]

Aaah... I hadn't seen that aspect of it being unfamiliar to XP.
Just use Win2000 for my work emails & calendar... the real work is done on a Mac.

They will probably appeal against this appeals' ruling -- slow down the whole thing while they come up with something new...

True but the European Court has ordered them to start complying with their wishes immediately which means from Jan they have to ship to all OEM's selling machines in Europe with the new XP minus WMP and then ship it to the shelves in Feb.

 

[jadam]

Wow... Maybe the EU should sue Apple's ass off for including Quicktime, and iTunes, and iPhoto, and iMovie, and iChat in Mac OS X...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Wow... Maybe the EU should sue Apple's ass off for including Quicktime, and iTunes, and iPhoto, and iMovie, and iChat in Mac OS X...

With Apple's market share there is no case.

If anything, the EU would like to see M$ face real competition for marketshare.

 

[jxyama]

Wow... Maybe the EU should sue Apple's ass off for including Quicktime, and iTunes, and iPhoto, and iMovie, and iChat in Mac OS X...

apple has not been convicted of monopolistic behavior.

 

[jadam]

With Apple's market share there is no case.

If anything, the EU would like to see M$ face real competition for marketshare.

The way I see it, it's just Discrimination. The EU Court is just trying to set a precedent, but if they are trying to say that the OS should not bundle a Media Player, why not apply that policy to EVERY SINGLE OPERATING SYSTEM. Because Microsoft has a Monopoly on the OS Market? So what, did the EU turn into Robind Hood, Steal from the rich, give to the poor? Hah! This isn't the middle ages folks.


Maybe we should have the EU force apple to not provide any software with their iPods because Apple is creating a monopoly on the MP3 Player Market. Yeah lets also ge the EU to mandate that the iPods don't come with iTunes for free because they are creating a monopoly and using their unfair advantage to push the iTunes Music Store.

Come on guys, we have Laissez-Faire for a reason. Of course there are times when the government might want to intervene, but this isn't one of them. Why do you think firefox is becoming so popular? because of the market, Microsoft saw it had no competition against IE so they lagged behind in development. New great web browser comes along called firefox, people start hording it like crazy because of no spyware and more features then IE, and you know what, thats what the market predicts, superior products win. Let it do its thing, it works yah know.


Ohh and by the way, there is NO dollar sign in the name Microsoft. Nor is there a $ in MS.

 

[Blue Velvet]

....and you know what, thats what the market predicts, superior products win.

Oh right, so that's why we're lumbered with 90-98% Windows usage amongst the computer-using public today...

It's soooo obviously superior to anything else out there.

Why can't we see the truth -- poor deluded fools that we are...


p.s. Ever heard of Betamax?

 

[thequicksilver]

The way I see it, it's just Discrimination. The EU Court is just trying to set a precedent, but if they are trying to say that the OS should not bundle a Media Player, why not apply that policy to EVERY SINGLE OPERATING SYSTEM. Because Microsoft has a Monopoly on the OS Market? So what, did the EU turn into Robind Hood, Steal from the rich, give to the poor? Hah! This isn't the middle ages folks.

Don't agree. The issue I believe the EU is raising is thus:

• Microsoft has a de jure monopoly of the computer operating system market. This was proved in the US DoJ trial and was not revoked under appeal.
• As a monopoly, they have the responsibility to allow all vendors an equal right to attain a market in the personal computer business.
• Pre-installing WiMP on their systems discredits this obligation.

Apple doesn't apply in this case. Apple are a very small niche in the computer market of 2004, with a global marketshare of approximately 2%. Consumers consciously opt (in most cases) to buy a Mac, whereas (in most cases) PC owners bought their PC because it's the monopoly - it's legally perceived to be the only option. So, I personally *chose* to buy a system with iTunes, Quicktime, Safari, iLife etc preinstalled. Most don't, and just buy a computer, and therefore get WiMP preinstalled whether they want it or not.

What you say is therefore invalid.

 

[pdp]

legally perceived to be the only option?

im not sure what kind of buds you smoke in england but this my friend is a hideous attempt at backing your arguement. a similar example would be to say i was forced into buying a chevy because the nearest car dealer is miles and miles away. does this mean im legally obligated to buy this chevy i do not want due to my lack of effort?

wmp is a *gasp* ms licensed product. why would they go out and outsource this application to someone else when they have the capabilities to meet the challenge?

in simple terms for you: i can write a letter, fold it, seal the envelope, and apply the correct postage to it. then im told i can not seal the envelope myself and must have someone else do that while providing them with a financial package for doing so. does that make sense to you?

i didnt want safari, quicktime, or ilife on my mac but it's coming with it.
who should i address my civil suit to? also, my ipod's environment is one that is noticably mac oriented. i'd like the ability to choose my os in it. i'd like the hacked os my uncle created but he was sued by mac. now he's busy paying that lawsuit off instead of bumping elbows with Jobs at the conference table.

in your never-ending angst towards ms, do you realize how ridiculous you make yourself appear? you jump on everything pc related, you cheer for court rulings you dont understand, and you have this underdog complex coupled with an elitist attitude. its nothing short of amusing

and my last comment, i promise. you're "it's legally perceived to be the only option" part still has me laughing. in that short snip, you've got 4 loaded words that should never be placed together in the same thought

 

[Blue Velvet]

i'd like the hacked os my uncle created but he was sued by mac. now he's busy paying that lawsuit off instead of bumping elbows with Jobs at the conference table.

you have this underdog complex coupled with an elitist attitude.

 

[PlaceofDis]

legally perceived to be the only option?

im not sure what kind of buds you smoke in england but this my friend is a hideous attempt at backing your arguement. a similar example would be to say i was forced into buying a chevy because the nearest car dealer is miles and miles away. does this mean im legally obligated to buy this chevy i do not want due to my lack of effort?

wmp is a *gasp* ms licensed product. why would they go out and outsource this application to someone else when they have the capabilities to meet the challenge?

in simple terms for you: i can write a letter, fold it, seal the envelope, and apply the correct postage to it. then im told i can not seal the envelope myself and must have someone else do that while providing them with a financial package for doing so. does that make sense to you?

i didnt want safari, quicktime, or ilife on my mac but it's coming with it.
who should i address my civil suit to? also, my ipod's environment is one that is noticably mac oriented. i'd like the ability to choose my os in it. i'd like the hacked os my uncle created but he was sued by mac. now he's busy paying that lawsuit off instead of bumping elbows with Jobs at the conference table.

in your never-ending angst towards ms, do you realize how ridiculous you make yourself appear? you jump on everything pc related, you cheer for court rulings you dont understand, and you have this underdog complex coupled with an elitist attitude. its nothing short of amusing

and my last comment, i promise. you're "it's legally perceived to be the only option" part still has me laughing. in that short snip, you've got 4 loaded words that should never be placed together in the same thought

for some reason in both posts i have read that you made you seem quite hostile toward mac users, yes we are not perfect, but neither is anyone else

on this issue though, the EU ruled accordingly, Microsoft has been ruled to be a Monopoly, that means they have to face the consequences, this is part of it, they are tryiing to push thier products and force people to use their software to gain marketshare, Apple, is no where near a monopoly, meaning they can include whatever they want, MS gets this treatment because of unfair business practices

 

[pdp]

for some reason in both posts i have read that you made you seem quite hostile toward mac users, yes we are not perfect, but neither is anyone else

on this issue though, the EU ruled accordingly, Microsoft has been ruled to be a Monopoly, that means they have to face the consequences, this is part of it, they are tryiing to push thier products and force people to use their software to gain marketshare, Apple, is no where near a monopoly, meaning they can include whatever they want, MS gets this treatment because of unfair business practices

hi pod, again my apologies for seeming to be anti-mac. i am not hostile towards those who use macs. i am after all waiting for my own machine to be built and shipped. my tone may come off as less-than-peachy since it's not of the norm at macrumors. hopefully you can tell i mean nothing by it other than it being an unexpectedly rude wake up call.

already i feel to be the black sheep of macrumors so i'd rather not continue on about the eu ruling. if you'd like to discuss further we can always pm.

i see i have a pm waiting. lets hope it's not someone threatening to send a virus to my pc. i keed i keed

 

[jadam]

for some reason in both posts i have read that you made you seem quite hostile toward mac users, yes we are not perfect, but neither is anyone else

on this issue though, the EU ruled accordingly, Microsoft has been ruled to be a Monopoly, that means they have to face the consequences, this is part of it, they are tryiing to push thier products and force people to use their software to gain marketshare, Apple, is no where near a monopoly, meaning they can include whatever they want, MS gets this treatment because of unfair business practices

Umm... you know, im typing all this on my G3 iBook right? You DO KNOW that I am a Mac user and I love my iBook, right?

And no the EU did not rule accordingly, they ruled unfairly. They ruled against microsoft but against no one else. Microsoft is not forcing you to use internet explorer. They are not forcing you to use windows media player. They are not forcing you to use Microsoft Office either. On my PC I use VLC for video, iTunes for music, and firefox for web browsing. I also use MS Office because I like it compared to the alternatives. You see a trend here? Im not being forced to use any of microsoft's specific media products other then the operating system. Hah, as a matter of fact, I have even gentoo installed on my computer for a dual boot, I don't even have to use Microsoft's Operating system on my PC!!! But you know what, I prefer Windows XP over Gentoo for doing work and having fun, then again I also Prefer OS X over windows XP for work and fun but alas I need a newer faster mac before I start using my mac only.

 

[pdp]

lol, i think he was talking to me jadam. i quickly became the proverbial black sheep of macrumors

 

[jadam]

lol, i think he was talking to me jadam.

Yeah, he said in both posts though so I assumed he ment my post and your post.

 

[PlaceofDis]

i was talking to pdp, jadam, i was refering to another post (s)he made in another thread, sorry

and pdp, your not a blacksheep, you just seem a bit defensive in your posts

smilies are your friends though


welcome to the community, i see that you havent been around much, i just dont like generalizations about people who you might not know too much about thats all, but all opinons are just that, and they are welcome, at least from me because they help give different perspectives

 

[absolut_mac]

I disagree

New great web browser comes along called firefox, people start hording it like crazy because of no spyware and more features then IE, and you know what, thats what the market predicts, superior products win.

Nope, it's usually superior marketing and superior BS that wins. Superior products rarely win on their own merit.

Two classic examples of the above is VHS vs Beta. The picture quality of VHS was always dreadful quality compared to Beta, plus it had a very Rube Goldberg way of wrapping the tape around the spool compared to the far simpler and superior Beta. Hence the much larger tape packaging.

Secondly, ever notice how many McDonald's hamburger outlets there are? Almost every town in the USA has at least one. Just because they are larger and more financially successful than say Spagos, doesn't necessarily make their product superior. In fact, the doggie box that Spagos packs your left overs in tastes a lot better than any McDonalds meal

 

[AmigoMac]

Ohh and by the way, there is NO dollar sign in the name Microsoft. Nor is there a $ in MS.

What!???



Just wait till we see iTune$ ...

 

[broken_keyboard]

The government is supposed to protect people's rights, not try to engineer a competitive marketplace. This judgment is shameful. When I think of that judge I think of a pile of green slime.

 

[JFreak]

i didnt want safari, quicktime, or ilife on my mac but it's coming with it.

i believe you can make a qustom installation of osx without safari/ilife if you choose to. standard quicktime however is a gui layer and removing it would be stupid, however possible.

there's a reason apple sells quicktime pro. that's the parts of the quicktime software that are NOT a part of the operating system, and using those parts requires a purchase of a serial number. it is therefore not "bundled" although the functionality has already been installed. without activation, it's just a portion of lost hard drive space and nothing more, as it is not functional by default.

 

[garybUK]

The government is supposed to protect people's rights, not try to engineer a competitive marketplace. This judgment is shameful. When I think of that judge I think of a pile of green slime.

Well the government have a duty to protect the people of their country and make sure they are not getting blatantly ripped off.... That's why in the UK and over Europe the old State owned companies are being opened and subjected to competition, i.e. Gas/Electric/Telco/Railways/Airlines etc.. etc.. this is only the same thing imo. It's a result of the Thatcher/Regan days that seems to be carrying on as planned.

 

[JFreak]

Microsoft is not forcing you to use internet explorer. They are not forcing you to use windows media player. They are not forcing you to use Microsoft Office either.

first of all, adding office to your list is very unfair, as it is a commercial software that the company is NOT giving away for free, and it is not preinstalled. but ie and wimp are, and that's the problem, as general public has already adopted the stupid idea of "internet is the blue icon on my desktop", and that kind of thinking is "forcing" in my eyes. no, we who know better are not forced to do so, but those who don't realize there are alternatives are given far too easy option of using whatever microsoft has installed for them. if one doesn't need to THINK about what program to download/install and just use something instead, guess what, it is human nature to accept the easy way out. microsoft wants to benefit from the stupidity of general public and it is more than fair that eu court has put an end to it.

i wouldn't mind microsoft installing ie and wimp if they would provide alternatives too. installing firefox and itunes for example, or netscape and winamp. no desktop icons for whatever app, and each app only in the start menu. that would be fair.

but no, microsoft installs only ie and puts its icon on desktop, and microsoft installs only wimp and opens it by default when multimedia files are opened. that's ok for a company that has real competition, but for a monopolist it's just wrong. (and this is now the opinion of eu court and not just me...)

 

[broken_keyboard]

Well the government have a duty to protect the people of their country and make sure they are not getting blatantly ripped off....

The government should punish outright fraud or tricking of people out of their money, and also any violent act. But I don't see either of those here.

They just have some idea in their heads that a competitive marketplace is good for society, and therefore all the justification they need to trample over people's rights to create it.

In this case it is the rights of a group of US citizens to work together, to call themselves Microsoft, to write software and sell it. Leave them alone you evil judge!