No controllers would be a mistake, there needs to be some?

[Piggie]

Ok, so this is just my opinion

Hand tracking is a great thing, you can do so much with it.
Even on the Meta Quest 2 is has a reasonably good attempt at hand tracking when you can use your hands and fingers to operate menu's and tap on virtual keyboards.
Also there are a very few games that allow you to put down the controllers and only use your hands.
This is all great and amazing that this works, and looks very much like Sci-Fi movies where they tap on holographic screens in mid-air.

However........

When it comes to, let's call them "Entertainment Apps" you REALLY need something to physically hold in your hand an press with fingers.
Before you all SHOUT "Apple is not making this just for gaming"
Yes, of course. But we know how much of an enjoyable experience is when it comes to these VR Headsets, and how it's a large part of this technology.

Apple will have amazing hand tracking I'm convinced of it.
We will have virtual buttons and keyboards and all sorts of hand/finger gestures to control things.
But we NEED physical controllers.

So my thoughts (and I would welcome yours also)

1: Apple with additionally make their own optional controllers you can purchase that will have fancy tracking electronics built in.
2: Apple will create effectively dummy controllers that don't do anything electronically, but the headset will still be scanning your hands whilst you are holding this plastic shape. Like a Golf Club/Gun/Keypad, so you will have the sensation of a physical item in your hand.
This seems far fetched due to seeing fingers wrapped around things.
3: It will be down to 3rd parties to make controllers. (can't see this being a thing for compatibility)
4: Apple will realise their mistake? Learn people want some form of controller for certain uses and will come out with controllers later.

Given how much Apple must have studied the market I must assume No. 1 would be the only logical option.

Love to hear your thoughts?

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

VR motion controllers are only necessary for games since they're mimicking hands through button presses as well as joysticks for movement. However those headsets were made for gaming first. The Apple Reality isn't, it's trying to be something new we haven't seen before, not a pure gaming headset. I'm sure there will be games on it, but not the games we know.

While I know those who have VR headsets already like you and I are abrasive of the idea of not having motion controllers to emulate hand movement, bear in mind this is the direction Meta is slowly trying to go down as well. The endgoal for the Quest is getting hand tracking and the software that supports it to the point that the motion controllers are an optional accessory, which would decrease the cost of the HMD even more, lower the barrier of entry for normies more, and shrink the box size even more.

This isn't the first time Apple's done an input method that was completely against the norm. Remember before the iPhone all smartphones had physical keyboards on them, then the iPhone showed up and ditched the keyboard and was just one big touch screen. Everyone laughed at the idea of not having a physical keyboard combined with at the time the iPhone's high cost and cellular plan requirement, and in the end it turned out better and now all smartphones use touchscreens.

 

[Piggie]

I hear what you are saying and agree with your points that Apple are not going all out to make a gaming headset (though I suspect everyone, even Apple accepts games will be some part of the use-case)
Additionally yes, Apple are wanting to try something new, with new input methods.

That Steve Ballmer video is a classic that will never get old..... However, to be totally fair, no-one knew how the iPhone would do at the time, and the iPhone one was pretty bad compared to what we consider normal these days.

I'm just struggling to accept that, whilst hand tracking is great for some things, it's not ideal for everyone.

Quite a few years ago now, I was one who was arguing FOR a stylus, trying to explain how humans created tools to enhance their abilities. We started with finger painting on cave walls, and evolved to the point of using Pencils/Pens and Brushes to go beyond the accuracy of a chunky finger.

I was of course told I was wrong by most posters at the time (we all know the famous Steve Jobs stylus quote)
But then, a few years later, Apple realised this, and came out with their own Stylus, but had to call it something different obviously
And this tool did the obvious. It was able to do things more accurately (when needed) than a whole finger tip was able to.

Anyway, going back to the headset and hand tracking.
My feeling at the moment is that even with X-Ray hand tracking! that could see thru bones! and see fingers hidden behind another hand or arm, even if that existed!
Humans are tactile animals, and until we have tactile/force gloves to give us touch/pressure feedback, humans like and expect to feel something when pressed.

Remember, we've not talking about a flat screen here which you are looking at. We are talking about a 3D environment, where you may with to operate something with your hand whilst you are looking elsewhere.

Some software/games? with only hand tracking controls? 100% yes, it will be amazing at that.
But IMHO there is no one perfect answer for all use-cases.

Would I wish to be "Fighting a dragon" and need to remember I have to touch my thumb to my index finger for this ability, but on my other hand my thumb to my middle finger to jump, and them my thumb to my pinkie finger for my super power shot etc etc...?
I suspect not.

Which is why I still feel some tactile input method/controller that fits your hand well is a necessity for, let's say certain entertainment titles.

If anything, it's nice to have. Take Walkabout Mini Golf, a superb title. Could that be done 100% with your hands?
Sure, pretty easy I'd say. However, it's actually nice to feel you are holding something physical like a golf club in your hands, which is represented by the golf club handle in the game.

Hence I'm still of the opinion, controllers of "Some Kind" are going to be coming, as hand tracking, even 100% perfect is not the best option for tactile humans in every situation.

Guess we shall see in time if I'm right or wrong
I got the "Stylus / Apple Pencil" right, though we had to wait a few years

 

[Jensend]

VR motion controllers are only necessary for games since they're mimicking hands through button presses as well as joysticks for movement. However those headsets were made for gaming first. The Apple Reality isn't, it's trying to be something new we haven't seen before, not a pure gaming headset. I'm sure there will be games on it, but not the games we know.

While I know those who have VR headsets already like you and I are abrasive of the idea of not having motion controllers to emulate hand movement, bear in mind this is the direction Meta is slowly trying to go down as well. The endgoal for the Quest is getting hand tracking and the software that supports it to the point that the motion controllers are an optional accessory, which would decrease the cost of the HMD even more, lower the barrier of entry for normies more, and shrink the box size even more.

This isn't the first time Apple's done an input method that was completely against the norm. Remember before the iPhone all smartphones had physical keyboards on them, then the iPhone showed up and ditched the keyboard and was just one big touch screen. Everyone laughed at the idea of not having a physical keyboard combined with at the time the iPhone's high cost and cellular plan requirement, and in the end it turned out better and now all smartphones use touchscreens.

I expect the OS and 1st party apps to be completely controllable using only hand and eye tracking. But I really hope they have an option for 6-DOF tracked controllers much more quickly than the iPad got proper stylus support (It took over 6.5 years after the 1st iPad was released for the Pencil to be released).

 

[MrWayne]

I use my quest pro all day without controllers. My usage is programming, music, movies and browsing. they released an experimental feature that gives you touch like mode with hands. it made things dramatically better.

 

[Piggie]

I use my quest pro all day without controllers. My usage is programming, music, movies and browsing. they released an experimental feature that gives you touch like mode with hands. it made things dramatically better.

That's great and hand/finger tracking is amazing
I guess it all depends on if Apple want to embrace entertainment apps on their headset