Not agreeing to the EULA?

[mingoglia]

I actually read my entire EULA last night due to all the threads regarding the lawsuit Apple is in regarding the non-Apple branded PC's.

<disclaimer>This isn't meant to be a trolling message and I hope it doesn't attract those that are unwilling to discuss the topic rationally. I have no intention on returning my hardware or software, but was just thinking through a scenario in my head.</disclaimer>

In the EULA it states in part,

"IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THIS LICENSE, DO NOT USE THE APPLE SOFTWARE AND CLICK "DISAGREE". IF YOU DO NOT AGREE TO THE TERMS OF THE LICENSE, YOU MAY RETURN THE APPLE SOFTWARE WITHIN THE RETURN PERIOD TO THE APPLE STORE OR AUTHORIZED DISTRIBUTOR WHERE YOU OBTAINED IT FOR A REFUND, SUBJECT TO APPLE'S RETURN POLICY FOUND AT http://www.apple.com/lega/sales_policies/."

So I pulled up that site and navigated to the appropriate area and read,

"Note that, as an exception, you may return Apple branded software within the 14-day return period, and not be subject to a restocking fee, if you do not agree to the licensing terms, provided you do not retain any copies, including copies stored on a computer or other device. However, if your software includes a license that you can read before you break the seal or sticker on the software media packaging, you may not return the software once you break the software media packaging seal or sticker."

So my question is this. Let's say I bought this Mac but didn't use it for over 14 days. It's certainly possible. In fact I finally opened up a piece of weather monitoring equipment I bought 2 years ago just last week. When purchasing my Mac, nothing is mentioned during the sales process about a time sensitive agreement to a EULA. If I opened up my sealed box (the EULA on mine was not in a place where I can review it before opening the box) and set up my computer and came across the TOS and disagreed, what would happen? At that point I did not agree to their policy but I'm NOT ALLOWED to return the product because it's past the 14 days.

Can Apple sell a product that you're not allowed to use because you did NOT agree to an AFTER SALE agreement without giving you the option to return said product that you're NOT allowed to use? It would make sense to me that if they're expecting someone to agree to a EULA that they'd either have to have to sign off on this BEFORE they sell you a product OR allow you to return the product if at any time during your ownership you no longer agree with the EULA.

Thoughts/opinions. Let's try to keep the tempers down a bit, eh?

Mike

 

[roadbloc]

The 14 day return applies to pretty much everything you buy. And I think you have more money than sense to buy something and then not even bother looking at it for two years.

 

[combat]

Hey well, they are in the business to make money, not everyone happy. Things like that could happen. Now if it had happened to me, I would be very, very upset. Now to the point in which you could argue your case for a refund/return/replacement, who knows? However, when buying a brand new computer, more specifically and MBP or and iMac, who wouldn't open it for two weeks?

 

[mingoglia]

Hey well, they are in the business to make money, not everyone happy. Things like that could happen. Now if it had happened to me, I would be very, very upset. Now to the point in which you could argue your case for a refund/return/replacement, who knows? However, when buying a brand new computer, more specifically and MBP or and iMac, who wouldn't open it for two weeks?

It could quite easily happen with a gift. During Christmas they have an extended return policy but if I bought let's say my college age son (which doesn't exist, but just sayin') a Mac Mini for a college gift it's quite possible between the time I buy it and the time I head up north to visit him for his birthday 14 days could certainly elapse.

 

[Frosties]

Regional and national law trumps Eula. Eula is just words nothing else.

 

[mingoglia]

The 14 day return applies to pretty much everything you buy. And I think you have more money than sense to buy something and then not even bother looking at it for two years.

You're correct. However, when you buy these other items, they're yours to do with as you choose. I think we've established in other threads that a EULA agreement means you're licensing software (you do not own) and if you don't agree to their very specific terms you're to not use/discontinue use their product. If I buy a toaster and miss the return window I can still use the toaster.

...and yes, I'm like a chick with clothes when it comes to certain things. I have a XM Radio receiver/tuner kit that I received from an old business partner as a gift. That was probably 5 years ago and I've never opened it. I had Sirius in 3 out of 4 of my vehicles so I had no use for it.... now that they're the same company, who knows.

 

[lionheartednyhc]

I don't understand the problem. The return policy is clearly stated. If you opened up the computer past the return policy and saw the EULA, then that's your fault. Just like if you waited until day 15 and then turned it on and realized you don't like OSX and wanted to return it. Would you complain then?

No?

Ok then.

 

[mingoglia]

I don't understand the problem. The return policy is clearly stated. If you opened up the computer past the return policy and saw the EULA, then that's your fault. Just like if you waited until day 15 and then turned it on and realized you don't like OSX and wanted to return it. Would you complain then?

No?

Ok then.

There's clearly a difference. If I turned it on and didn't like OSX I could continue to use OSX (assuming I agreed to the TOS) for as long as I owned the machine. In the scenario I outlined, I would not have a product at all that I could physically use without being in violation of law. For all intents and purposes I could have assumed I was buying an appliance like anything else just to have my hopes and dreams cut short when I booted it up and realized there was an agreement I had to agree to in order to fulfill my dreams.... and if I chose to not agree there was no recourse on getting back my investment.

 

[roadbloc]

If I buy a toaster and miss the return window I can still use the toaster.

True... but honestly, let's put this into perspective. Who actually reads EULA's? You've said yourself, you only read it last night, probably due to the sudden possible controversy over it, with companies selling counterfeit macs.

Even someone planning on building a Hackintosh without knowing it's potentially illegal isnt going to read it and decline.

 

[mingoglia]

True... but honestly, let's put this into perspective. Who actually reads EULA's? You've said yourself, you only read it last night, probably due to the sudden possible controversy over it, with companies selling counterfeit macs.

Even someone planning on building a Hackintosh without knowing it's potentially illegal isnt going to read it and decline.

True. An EULA has always been something I've read well after the fact when I'm bored on a Sunday afternoon. Since I have no intention on violating the terms of service it doesn't really apply.... however though people rarely read many long/boring legal documents ignorance is certainly not a defense if there were ever to be legal action. Lord knows I never read even 1/10 of the docs presented before me (or would have understood them anyway) when I signed my loan docs for my house. Doesn't mean the loan company wouldn't try to stick it to me if I were to not pay. After all, I *did* sign the docs.

I'd be curious to see a poll in which people are asked if they actually read a EULA in it's entirety before clicking "I agree".

 

[mslide]

I'd be curious to see a poll in which people are asked if they actually read a EULA in it's entirety before clicking "I agree".

There must be some anal people out there that read every single word but I thought everyone pretty much just ignored those things and either A) did whatever they wanted regardless if it was considered 'wrong' or 'stealing' (or whatever you want to call using software that you didn't pay for) or B) used common sense and used the software in a manner in which they felt was appropriate. I'm surprised some company hasn't tried putting something like "if you agree to the terms of this license agreement, you are signing away all of your worldly possessions to company XYZ" or some BS like that.

 

[Morod]

I'd be curious to see a poll in which people are asked if they actually read a EULA in it's entirety before clicking "I agree".

My vote in that poll would be a resounding "NO".

 

[HLdan]

I'd be curious to see a poll in which people are asked if they actually read a EULA in it's entirety before clicking "I agree".

Well I don't know about that but I always read the docs on any new software updates before installing. I know most people here don't. If the docs say a particular functionality was "repaired" then I won't install if I'm depending on that. I'll wait and ask someone how it performs first in case features may have been disabled. That being said. I DO in fact read complete EULA's on videogames, especially if I had intentions on copying them.

 

[ian.maffett]

My vote in that poll would be a resounding "NO".

Wow - I just notice you have to scroll to read the entire thing.

J/K but I am another NO.

BTW, Although I get where you're going here, the windows are there for your convenience, the EULA for theirs... if you fail to fall within these windows, you're out - no 4 ball walk. End of story.

 

[nanofrog]

The 14 day return applies to pretty much everything you buy. And I think you have more money than sense to buy something and then not even bother looking at it for two years.

It's possible though, and I've actually done it. Not an entire computer, but with various items. Electronic components (resistors, capacitors,...), toner cartridges,...

It could quite easily happen with a gift. During Christmas they have an extended return policy but if I bought let's say my college age son (which doesn't exist, but just sayin') a Mac Mini for a college gift it's quite possible between the time I buy it and the time I head up north to visit him for his birthday 14 days could certainly elapse.

Very plausible IMO.

Regional and national law trumps Eula. Eula is just words nothing else.

Assuming there's any local, state or federal laws that actually apply in terms of consumer protection. The language is even there in EULA's for such things (product warranty's too), but I don't recall anything in existance.

I understand that there is a need or Intellectual Property and Copyright protection, but where's the balance between that and consumer protection?

In terms of software, it feels like any consumer rights/protection died with the passing of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998. So we're stuck with the draconian language in EULA's, and no end in sight. Government has spoken, and its overwhelmingly in favor of corporations, not the citizens (in general, not aimed at any specific EULA).

 

[kolax]

Pretty sure it says on the receipt you get 14 days to return your Mac if you don't want it. That's the hardware..

Now, you are talking about the EULA for OS X. That too, has 14 days, and seeing as when you buy a Mac you get OS X with it and you have to agree to the EULA, those 14 days really tie in with the 14 days return period for anything.

And apart from a gift for someone, why would you buy a new computer and not open it till after a duration of 2 weeks..?

 

[macrem]

I think an exception to the 14 days would be at Apple's discretion, not ours. Also, this matter is related to the repackaging fee & not the EULA in its entirety.

 

[broken-chaos]

Apple hardware, interestingly, is not entirely useless without OSX. You can install, without bootcamp or anything, some variants of Linux. You may also be able to install Windows 7 without bootcamp (I'm not sure how advanced the EFI support is). The question of returning the hardware may be entirely separate than returning the software, depending on the circumstances.