Performa/Mac Plus programs compatible with later 68040 or even Powerpc models ?

[SyncToGreen]

I'm trying to narrow down my choices of what to search for on Ebay to replace a couple of my ancient Macs.

I bought a Mac Plus in 89 and then a Performa 200 in 92 basically for one purpose, which was to run a program I have that controls automation on a studio recording console made back in those times. I still have the program (800kb floppy and a bunch of safety copies) and the console, although the Macs died a few years ago. I was running OS6 or 7 on those old Macs.

Anyway.. I'm going to return to using the console and I really don't want to buy an eBay Mac Plus, or Performa, but would rather get something from that era that used a larger display compared to the teeny 9" b&w on the Plus/Performa.

The program manual from my last 1994 upgrade of the software (before the software maker discontinued it) shows compatible Macs being Mac Plus..se..se30..II, IIcx, IIci, IIsi, LC, Classic, or Classic II. Performa was never on the list but worked fine as I think those were bascially Classics anyway. The software does not show an OS preference. What I'm sort of picking up from this list is that the software was basically designed for the 68030 based Macs.

Anyone have a clue of what may happen if I try to run this on later 68040 or Powerpc based Macs that appeared later in time?

This may be too vague of a question since you all don't know this software that I have. I figured I'd ask here before biting the bullet to just buy random old Macs to test.

 

[Anonymous Freak]

From a software side, even MacWrite 1 (which came with the original Macintosh in 1984,) runs just fine through "Classic" mode on Mac OS X 10.4 on a Power Macintosh G5.

The harder part is the hardware aspect. I assume, based on your description, that this software controls something via a serial cable. If so, while it SHOULD work fine on any Mac with a built-in serial port, there is a chance that it may not.

 

[SyncToGreen]

Thanks for the tip. Yeah, the software communicates with the serial port. Guess I'll start the hunt.

 

[dmr727]

I think the chances of it working are good enough that I'd bite the bullet and buy an '040.

Of course, it doesn't take much to convince me to buy additional hardware.

 

[MacTech68]

Many of the later 030, 040 and PPC Macs use surface mount Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitors. These leak and corrode tracks on pretty much EVERY piece of electronics they're used in.

From a hardware reliability standpoint, there are two candidates that come to mind as being more reliable due to absence of these caps.

1. Mac SE (not the SE30 which does have these caps). Though these may have trouble with the flyback transformer shorting but otherwise are quite reliable (comparatively).

2. Quadra700. By far the best choice. You can use a VGA monitor (with a simple adapter) and these use Tantalum capacitors instead of SMD Electrolytic. The only trouble with these may be a dead battery and occasional PSU trouble. By far the best choice (IMHO) - Just not sure about the 040 compatibility.

Oh, and if the interface is RS422/Apple serial port, an emulated machine circa 1998 and later, may be more trouble than it's worth.

BTW, what is the model of the deck/desk and name of the software package?

 

[SyncToGreen]

I'll take a look for Quadras.

A cable on the Mac serial or printer port connects to an old Opcode miidi interface designed for the Macs of those days. Two midi cables then connect to the Tascam M-3700 recording console for bi-directional communication with the Mac.

The software itself was known as JL Cooper Pro3700 automation and always worked great with the Performa and Plus. Those tiny b&w displays were what I never liked.

 

[MacTech68]

I'll take a look for Quadras.

A cable on the Mac serial or printer port connects to an old Opcode miidi interface designed for the Macs of those days. Two midi cables then connect to the Tascam M-3700 recording console for bi-directional communication with the Mac.

The software itself was known as JL Cooper Pro3700 automation and always worked great with the Performa and Plus. Those tiny b&w displays were what I never liked.

Just looked at the M-3700. Nice desk. If you do go for the Quadra, make sure it's a 700. All the other Quadras use the SMD Electrolytics that leak.

If your old drives are using System 7.1, the 700 doesn't need a "System Enabler" and runs vanilla 7.1 minimum.

 

[SyncToGreen]

Thanks for the tips so far. After reading that the Performa 6290cd was one of the worst Macs ever made, I immediately bought one !! Not here yet, but if operational, I'll use it to test the software. If successful, I'll know that powerpc models aren't out of the question and maybe grab a few old, inexpensive Macs to toy with this project.

Other than a couple of Minis I have around here from the past couple of years, this is also gonna be good for filling in my knowledge of Macs from the mid years.

Being mostly from the Windows world, tearing this thing apart will be fun.

I found a guy selling internal scsi burners for Macs. From Apple docs, it appears I can lift the case and replace the internal cd-rom drive with one of these burners. Any tips on those- brands etc that may work with the old Macs?

Also, am I right that I should be looking for Toast 4 to possibly burn backups to cd if the burner works ? Old versions of Toast seem very hard to find.

This 6290cd is loaded with about every card option Apple had at the time and I know this thing was aimed at the Sears crowd etc. This one even appears to have the dedicated vga option as well as the standard Apple display type connector. Owner says os 9 is on it but the restore cd will be 7.6 or 7.5. Think I'll start with an immediate restore to that. Any opinions on how this model handles os 8? By the way, it has a gigantic 48mb of ram (ha ha)

Will also explore networking once I add an ethernet card to the comm or ld port, but those projects are for another time.

This is a cool place !

 

[MacTech68]

Thanks for the tips so far. After reading that the Performa 6290cd was one of the worst Macs ever made, I immediately bought one !! Not here yet, but if operational, I'll use it to test the software. If successful, I'll know that powerpc models aren't out of the question and maybe grab a few old, inexpensive Macs to toy with this project.

Yup. They sure were. Bad ROM/Cache Dimm, EMI Clips that scratch the logic board, the 5200 had a brittle RGB cable, CommSlot cards with no "hook", LC-PDS slot problems, Power Supplies that die or go BANG etc etc....

Being mostly from the Windows world, tearing this thing apart will be fun.

I'd suggest getting a take apart for it. I've seen plenty of people all but destroy the case trying to get in.

Do a Google for:
6200 6300 pdf performa

I found a guy selling internal scsi burners for Macs. From Apple docs, it appears I can lift the case and replace the internal cd-rom drive with one of these burners. Any tips on those- brands etc that may work with the old Macs?

Also, am I right that I should be looking for Toast 4 to possibly burn backups to cd if the burner works ? Old versions of Toast seem very hard to find.

There is a small grey plug that fits the burner which then slides into a socket inside the chassis. Some burners' SCSI interface isn't aligned the same but I have no way of knowing which will work. Apple predominantly used Panasonic/Matsushita & Sony CDROM drives. You may have trouble with the size of the tray nose. Toast 4 updated to 4.1.3 or Toast 5 updated to 5.2.x should be perfect. Try to get Toast Deluxe (v4) or Toast 5 Titanium as they are full uncrippled versions.

This 6290cd is loaded with about every card option Apple had at the time and I know this thing was aimed at the Sears crowd etc. This one even appears to have the dedicated vga option as well as the standard Apple display type connector. Owner says os 9 is on it but the restore cd will be 7.6 or 7.5. Think I'll start with an immediate restore to that. Any opinions on how this model handles os 8? By the way, it has a gigantic 48mb of ram (ha ha)

With 72pin RAM they are slow. OS 8 will be horrible. The 5400/6400 improved on that with FPM DIMMs. Update the 7.5.x to 7.5.5.
If at all possible, use DriveSetup 1.7.3 to re-format the drive. The 5200/6200 used an on-board IDE driver initially and if you use the original DriveSetup, there will be no driver partition on the drive and could have trouble mounting the bare drive in other systems if ever required. A newer IDE drive can assist with the overall speed, but don't go nuts on capacity. 40GB drives work IIRC.

Good luck!

 

[chrismacguy]

Yup. They sure were. Bad ROM/Cache Dimm, EMI Clips that scratch the logic board, the 5200 had a brittle RGB cable, CommSlot cards with no "hook", LC-PDS slot problems, Power Supplies that die or go BANG etc etc....

I'd suggest getting a take apart for it. I've seen plenty of people all but destroy the case trying to get in.

Do a Google for:
6200 6300 pdf performa

There is a small grey plug that fits the burner which then slides into a socket inside the chassis. Some burners' SCSI interface isn't aligned the same but I have no way of knowing which will work. Apple predominantly used Panasonic/Matsushita & Sony CDROM drives. You may have trouble with the size of the tray nose. Toast 4 updated to 4.1.3 or Toast 5 updated to 5.2.x should be perfect. Try to get Toast Deluxe (v4) or Toast 5 Titanium as they are full uncrippled versions.

With 72pin RAM they are slow. OS 8 will be horrible. The 5400/6400 improved on that with FPM DIMMs. Update the 7.5.x to 7.5.5.
If at all possible, use DriveSetup 1.7.3 to re-format the drive. The 5200/6200 used an on-board IDE driver initially and if you use the original DriveSetup, there will be no driver partition on the drive and could have trouble mounting the bare drive in other systems if ever required. A newer IDE drive can assist with the overall speed, but don't go nuts on capacity. 40GB drives work IIRC.

Good luck!

Also, when that performa does wind you up to the point of destruction (I recently turned one down based on the fact they are so terrible) - id go and get a Quadra 700 (or get one in preparation) - as their beautiful machines from that era. Until 2004 or so I used a Quadra 700/7.1 at school in the "music studio" and it worked wonderfully with a very old copy of I believe it was ProTools (v2/v3 maybe - not quite sure).

 

[3Detailer]

Hello everyone, nube here. I'm sorry to dig up this old thread, but I recently bought the same JL Cooper kit for my own M3700 mixer, and now I have to find a Mac for it. After a search on the net, I found this thread, which has me wondering if anyone had tried the Quadra 700 suggestion, as I've found no other mention of it in any other M3000/JL Cooper discussions that exist on the net.

I did do a very thorough comparison of the Macs listed in the JL Cooper manual, and it appeared that my best choice, if I could find a complete package, would be a MacIIcx or MacIIci.

However, due to being a long term PC guy and lack of Mac knowledge, and in light of previous comments regarding capacitors etc, these may not be the best choice. Hence my opening this old thread.

So, I guess I'm hoping for a absolute..yes or no in regards to using a Quadra700? Any one have an answer to this?

I looked at the SE too, but the reason I was looking at the MacII's is using a larger display, of which I also found a cable adapter which allows the use of a current LCD type monitor with them..at least I think it works with these Macs. Any one know for sure? Being semi retired on a fixed budget, I can't afford to make mistakes in choices.

Which brings up my last question. Are older Macs fairly DIY repairable via component replacement? I'm fairly competent when it comes time to fixing PC's, but completely in the dark about Mac's.

Thanks for any insight.
Rick

PS..anyone know the difference between an APPLE II vs a Macintosh II? thanks, just curious.

 

[MacTech68]

Hello everyone, nube here. I'm sorry to dig up this old thread, but I recently bought the same JL Cooper kit for my own M3700 mixer, and now I have to find a Mac for it. After a search on the net, I found this thread, which has me wondering if anyone had tried the Quadra 700 suggestion, as I've found no other mention of it in any other M3000/JL Cooper discussions that exist on the net.

I did do a very thorough comparison of the Macs listed in the JL Cooper manual, and it appeared that my best choice, if I could find a complete package, would be a MacIIcx or MacIIci.

However, due to being a long term PC guy and lack of Mac knowledge, and in light of previous comments regarding capacitors etc, these may not be the best choice. Hence my opening this old thread.

So, I guess I'm hoping for a absolute..yes or no in regards to using a Quadra700? Any one have an answer to this?

I looked at the SE too, but the reason I was looking at the MacII's is using a larger display, of which I also found a cable adapter which allows the use of a current LCD type monitor with them..at least I think it works with these Macs. Any one know for sure? Being semi retired on a fixed budget, I can't afford to make mistakes in choices.

Which brings up my last question. Are older Macs fairly DIY repairable via component replacement? I'm fairly competent when it comes time to fixing PC's, but completely in the dark about Mac's.

Thanks for any insight.
Rick

PS..anyone know the difference between an APPLE II vs a Macintosh II? thanks, just curious.

I can't say I know the Quadra700 works with the mixer, but all I can say is that I see no reason why it shouldn't.

As for the IIci and IIcx, these do suffer from leaking SMD electrolytics and I've had fun repairing tracks with prototyping wire on them once or twice.

Yes, a simple Mac video adapter will allow you to use an LCD with a Quadra 700. It should also work on a MacII series machine but your resolution will be very low.

Regarding DIY repairs, it depends to what level you refer. I've certainly replaced components on logic boards and power supplies. Some logic board (motherboard) components are custom parts, but many are industry standard components. Power supply components are pretty much generic industry standard parts. However, as with ANY computer of this age, some semiconductor manufacturers have/do/will discontinue parts.

Disassembly is relatively easy with MacII and Quadra machines, and these days, you can often find the resources online for take-apart and troubleshooting.

Finally, the AppleII range of computers was Apple's first mass-produced consumer product which ran on 6502 series CPUs. The Macintosh product was a totally new platform originally running on Motorola's 68000 series CPUs. The MacII was the second generation of this product, essentially introducing color display to the product. The AppleII product is NOT a Mac, but a Mac IS an Apple product. Does that make sense?

I hope the previous poster can give you the definitive answer you're looking for regarding the Quadra700.

 

[3Detailer]

I can't say I know the Quadra700 works with the mixer, but all I can say is that I see no reason why it shouldn't.

Hi MacTech68, hey thanks for your reply. Well, after reading a comparison between them..I didn't either. But that doesn't mean it will work. If I'm not mistaken, the Quadra uses a later CPU than the supported Macs, right? Don't know if that makes a difference, but ...that's why I'm here.

Well, about the DIY thing, I've changed capacitors on a PC mobo amongst other things, and built two PC's, but their a completely different animal than Macs. Right? Right.

Fortunately, my cousin(who must have been a member here at one time) owned his own Apple/Mac store over in Bend Oregon. He probably can help me if need be.

Thanks for the info MacTech68. Every little bit helps. Well, I posted this same question at a few Recording forums, but still no answer, and maybe won't get one as this is pretty esoteric stuff...and old. But I have to make a decision pretty quick. Gotta get this thing running. Thanks again.

 

[Lil Chillbil]

yeah i think that the quadra should work but so that you don't have to be waiting all day for the quadra you should get it up to maximum specs on its ram and hard drive and be sure to buy a new pram battery with your order

 

[3Detailer]

yeah i think that the quadra should work

Great...two votes of confidence. Well, that's good enough for me, coming from people who know about Mac's. Now if I could only find one. I've searched a lot of avenues but haven't seen a single one yet. If I come across a MacIIcx or IIci first, I'll probably go ahead and get it if it works, as I really need to get this thing going. I can always keep an eye out for the Quadra.

but so that you don't have to be waiting all day for the quadra you should get it up to maximum specs on its ram and hard drive and be sure to buy a new pram battery with your order

Thanks for the advice.
Rick

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Oh, I forgot to ask something. I just saw a Quadra650 for sale on ebay. Is there something different between the 650 and the 700 that would negate it as a choice? I did the spec comparison thing but not knowing much about Macs, I couldn't discern an important difference, other than the form factor, and original OS. Thanks.

 

[Scott Baret]

The 650 has the option of an internal CD-ROM, which the 700 does not have. I'm not sure offhand if it has the undesirable capacitors.

Keep in mind there are two 650 models. A Centris 650 has the same 25MHz 040 as the Quadra 700. The later Quadra 650 has a 33MHz 040.

I can vouch for both the SE and 700 as reliable models. I have SEs which have never had anything done to them which are still functional and in service. Keep in mind most of these are nearing the quarter century mark (some early models are there already).

If you consider an SE, avoid anything with a 1987 manufacture date, as they used a noisy rat cage fan which was known to cause interference models. Many were replaced by Apple, although the most recent 1987 SE I looked at still had its original fan intact. Ideally, go for an SE SuperDrive or SE FDHD, which had a 1.4MB floppy drive.

The SE/30, IIci, and IIcx all suffer from capacitor problems. If you're not skilled in soldering, you're best avoiding them, as the caps will fail soon in those computers if they haven't failed already.

 

[3Detailer]

The SE/30, IIci, and IIcx all suffer from capacitor problems. If you're not skilled in soldering, you're best avoiding them, as the caps will fail soon in those computers if they haven't failed already.

Hey, thanks for the additional info. Well, like I said earlier, I have replaced capacitors on a PC mobo. Scary. Worked though, which totally astounded me, even though I received a NASA soldering certificate a long time ago. But on a Mac?..ummm, I'm not so sure. My luck isn't that good. I suppose though, if the price were right on a MacII, and the capacitors looked bad, I might try it.

Thing is though, just finding one seems to be the problem. I posted a MacII Wanted listing on Craigslist in my area..to no avail. I'll post it again in a more urban area, as I live along the Oregon coast...which isn't the best place to find stuff.

Anyway, thanks again Scott.

 

[3Detailer]

Well dust my britches. Just found a complete working MacSE for $50 on Craigslist in my area. Emailed em and offered $25...they took it!! Requires a 4 hour drive both ways though. Oh well, at least I can test this thing out and look for a Quadra later. Thanks

oh, I did find a Mac Classic SE too. Never heard of that one..maybe they just assume it's a "Classic". Any one know or can verify this? I looked here to see if Apple ever made a Classic SE....didn't see it. But the picture in the ad for the SE showed two floppy drive inserts, and the "ClassicSE" picture only showed one.



Thanks

 

[3Detailer]

Holy cow. Now I'm really confused. I found a Mac LC II for $25 on Craigslist..onlly 50 miles from me. Unfortunately, the manual for the JL cooper unit list a Mac LC (no II). I looked at the comparison but didn't see anything important. Any one think the LC II might work? This is getting confusing. Gotta decide quick cause I'm leaving in an hour.

 

[MacTech68]

Holy cow. Now I'm really confused. I found a Mac LC II for $25 on Craigslist..onlly 50 miles from me. Unfortunately, the manual for the JL cooper unit list a Mac LC (no II). I looked at the comparison but didn't see anything important. Any one think the LC II might work? This is getting confusing. Gotta decide quick cause I'm leaving in an hour.

LCII might work, but it too suffers from the leaking cap problem.

To be more specific about these caps, they really cause a mess. You can't compare these to larger "thru hole" radial electrolytics you'll find on a PC motherboard. (Yes, modern PC motherboards DO use the offending surface mount electrolytics, but when did you see a 20year old PC still being used?).

For reference, here are some pics of them. They do the same thing in any equipment.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2012-01-09-classic-ii-cottonbud-solution.htm

As for the "SE Classic", they are most likely referring to an SE. If it has multiple horizontal cut-outs on the front, below the screen it's an SE. However, there were several revisions/versions/models. Some with two floppies, some with one, some with HDs. Then there is the SE 30, which refers to the fact that it has a Motorola 68030 CPU. The SE 30 was a Rolls Royce, but sadly suffered from the leaking cap problem.

 

[3Detailer]

Hi again. Hey thanks for the link. Now I understand. Well, this gives me an idea. You see, I'm a pro fabricator, and CAD detailer, and have built over 2000 custom projects in my life. Also, for the last 10 years, I've supplimented my semi-retired income by fixing hundreds of different products to re-sell on ebay.

But just to give you an idea of how far I will go to fix things, I had a problem with one of my HP2207 monitors. All of a sudden, a OSD prompt appeared, and wouldn't go away. I pushed all the menu buttons and it did nothing. So.what to do. Well, first I researched the problem on the net, and found a few things, but nothing relevent. This is when I decided to physically open the monitor and check it out...as my mechanic Dad told me over the years..when I couldn't figure out a problem..."Damnit Rick, open your eyes and LOOK. Over the years this became "standard operating practice", and caused me to look inside hundreds of items, and fix them. Especially electronics. You know, 9 times out of 10, I'd find a mechanical problem vs electronic. In this case, after discovering the monitor bezel/shell removal trick, I first looked at the small circuit board that the menu buttons were mounted to.
Well, guess what I found. Green corrosion around 3 of 4 micro switches, and a sticky yellow residue around the circuit board. It dawned on me. CAT PISS!!! One of my wifes cats had pee'd on the monitor, and it drained down into the inside of the bezel shroud. Well, I removed this circuit board and proceeded to replace the switches..which I ultimately did. HOWEVER, I also learned something about printed circuit boards.
After removing all the micro switches, I cleaned the board itself, only to find that during the un-soldering, I accidently soldered VERY narrow traces together. And the gap between them was less than the trace width. Well, I have a desoldering device that I won an award for during my stint as a Federal civil service worker, cleaning and repairing circuit boards for F-106 computers of the time. I used to to completely remove every bit of solder.
Now, I'm pretty good at soldering things, so after finding the exact same microswitches at Radioshack, I soldered them in place, as well as the wires, as the micro connector for the wire harness was corroded beyond repair too.

Ok, I get everything soldered, and remount the circuit board and test it. Hmmm, it didn't work. So, I did the next best thing. After drawing out the circuits themselves, I simply connected the appropriate wires together..voila..it worked. Hmmm, so now I started eliminating each switch to find the problem. This is when things got wierd. Well, I've never claimed to be a tech, and all I have is a multimeter to check things. So I started checking for possible cross connection between the circuits. But the more I checked the more I got frustrated, as every single circuit had continuity to the others. That's when I decided to SCRAPE between every single trace...to no avail. I still got continuity. I even went so far as to GRIND away trace material around those places that were wide enough, as to ABSOLUTELY make sure there was no continuity. FAIL. I didn't understand. It was as if the circuit board itself didn't have enough resistance. That's when I did a net search on circuit board design. Holy moly. It finally dawned on me. The voltage in these circuits was probably so low, that when I used my multimeter with a 9v battery...well, that had to be it. I even calibrated the meter using some resistors in that mode. Well, to make a long story long.. I simply gave up, and soldered the correct wires together, bypassing the circuitboard assembly altogether. Worked perfect.

Which brings up my idea. Why can't I simply build a small prototyping circuit board, using NEW capacitors with through connections, and simply run wires to the surface mount soldering points? Like this.

and btw, here's the mixer in the console which I built.(btw, the room ain't finished yet)

Down below the mixer, there is a soundproof enclosure for two PC's, which I modded two identical PC cases for an entirely new air path. Here's a Sketchup section view showing how it works, which it does..perfectly.

Well, thanks again. Time to keep looking for a Mac..even if it has leaking capacitors.(well...maybe)
rick

 

[3Detailer]

Btw, it just occured to me. Have you ever seen a Mac that's been modded or put in another case? It dawned on me that I MAY be able to relocate all the internal stuff from a MacII or Quadra into my second Modded case. I just finished it and put an old P4 in it. But something happened and fried the mobo!
So now I could use it for a Mac. Perfect.

Hmmm, maybe that was meant to be.

 

[MacTech68]

Wow! I must say I do like the studio design you're putting together, and the airflow idea for your PCs looks cool too ( if you'll pardon the pun! ).

Yes, you can certainly put a Mac into a custom case if you have the tooling abilities, which it appears you do have.

As for the caps, I've always replaced them with Tantalum surface mount caps. Tricky to get the right case size to fit the original solder pads, but it can be done. The benefit is that Tantalums never leak.

http://img.tootoo.com/mytootoo/upload/48/484535/product/484535_d0b573d61ce904fea849a05395937d8a.jpg

The big issue is cleaning the leaked electrolyte from the board. If it's been there for a while, you'll often find blackened circuit traces and IC pins. These are a real problem. The blackened tracks are often etched clean thru meaning you'll need some fine wire to bridge the track, and remove the affected corroded tracks.

Good luck with your hunting!

 

[3Detailer]

Hi again. Hmmm, I looked at those capacitors. I've never seen those type before. Well, looks like I've got a lot to learn about Macs. Like how to take them apart. From what I've read so far, some of these Macs are like a puzzle Just found this too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-CASE-SP...mputing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2027f5c6

Anyone know what size Torx this is? Just curious. I have them all, but not in long size. Of course, I have extensions, but sometimes, recessed screw holes are very small diameter. I suppose I could just weld an extension, but they're cheap. Just need to know what size.

Anyway, still looking. Thanks for all the help guys.

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Nevermind. Just found out on ebay. T-15. Amazing what you find. Even screws.