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skunk

macrumors G4
Original poster
Jun 29, 2002
11,759
6,109
Republic of Ukistan
I don't know if anyone heard Tim Berners-Lee this morning on the Beeb, but there's a company called Phorm which has just done deals with BT, Virgin and TalkTalk to sell information about every website their customers visit. Be warned. Be very warned.
Web creator rejects net tracking
By Rory Cellan-Jones
Technology correspondent, BBC News

The creator of the web has said consumers need to be protected against systems which can track their activity on the internet.
Sir Tim Berners-Lee told BBC News he would change his internet provider if it introduced such a system.

Plans by leading internet providers to use Phorm, a company which tracks web activity to create personalised adverts, have sparked controversy.

Sir Tim said he did not want his ISP to track which websites he visited.

"I want to know if I look up a whole lot of books about some form of cancer that that's not going to get to my insurance company and I'm going to find my insurance premium is going to go up by 5% because they've figured I'm looking at those books," he said.

Sir Tim said his data and web history belonged to him.

I think consumers rights in this are very important - we haven't seen the results of these systems being used
Sir Tim Berners-Lee
He said: "It's mine - you can't have it. If you want to use it for something, then you have to negotiate with me. I have to agree, I have to understand what I'm getting in return."

Phorm has said its system offers security benefits which will warn users about potential phishing sites - websites which attempt to con users into handing over personal data.

Kent Ertugrul, chief executive, of Phorm, told BBC News: "We have not had the chance to describe to Tim Berners-Lee how the system works and we look forward to doing that.

"We believe Phorm makes the internet a more vibrant and interesting place. Phorm protects personal privacy and unlike the hundreds of other cookies on your PC, it comes with an on/off switch."

The advertising system created by Phorm highlights a growing trend for online advertising tools - using personal data and web habits to target advertising.

Social network Facebook was widely criticised when it attempted to introduce an ad system, called Beacon, which leveraged people's habits on and off the site in order to provide personal ads.

'No strings'

The company was forced to give customers a universal opt out after negative coverage in the media.

Sir Tim added: "I myself feel that it is very important that my ISP supplies internet to my house like the water company supplies water to my house. It supplies connectivity with no strings attached. My ISP doesn't control which websites I go to, it doesn't monitor which websites I go to."

Sir Tim Berners-Lee talks about the future of the internet

Talk Talk has said its customers would have to opt in to use Phorm, while the two other companies which have signed up - BT and Virgin - are still considering both opt in or opt out options.

Sir Tim said he supported an opt-in system.

Privacy campaigners have questioned the legality of ISPs intercepting their customers' web-surfing habits.​
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7299875.stm

So, what's all the fuss about?

Simply put, three of the UK's largest ISPs (Virgin Media, BT and TalkTalk) have decided to sell your private browsing history to an advertising broker. Yes, the entire list of every web page you visit gets sent to Phorm (the broker) in real time, as you click, so they can send you 'targeted advertising'. Naturally the ISP's are not too keen on telling their users this, they'd much rather feed us all platitudes about how it'll help combat phishing and how the targeted adverts will be so much better than the random ones we see today. In fact, they didn't even announce it to the UK press, we had to find out about it from the New York Times!

Over the past few days a PR company retained by Phorm and indeed Phorm themselves have repeatedly attempted to address the numerous questions raised by many concerned individuals.

In our opinion however, they have failed to adequately address some of the most important issues raised repeatedly and ultimately unsuccessfully by our users.

We therefore call on Phorm and all participating ISPs to state publicly and on the record that they will ensure all deployments of the Phorm system meet the following specific requirements :

* The Phorm system must be fully opt-in. Opt-out systems are, in our opinion, not acceptable for such a potentially invasive piece of technology.

* Such opt-in must be explicit and voluntary (requiring specific user action) for all subscribers, not simply a change in the ISPs terms and conditions.

* The opt-in process must be managed at a network level, not reliant on cookies or any other type of client side mechanism.

* Where a user has chosen not to participate in the Phorm system, that user’s traffic must not be passed through or be accessible by any equipment owned, operated or supplied in whole or in part by Phorm (including software operating on ISP owned equipment).


Many of our users have indicated they would far prefer ISPs did not install the Phorm system at all, citing privacy, security and reliability concerns over this unproven technology; a sentiment with which we agree.

We appreciate that some ISPs wish to offer their users the choice, and in our opinion those deploying the Phorm system can only offer genuine choice to their users and guarantee to protect the privacy of those subscribers who choose not to participate in the Phorm system by accepting the requirements above.

We commend Talk Talk (carphone warehouse) for agreeing to make the Phorm system opt-in only and thank them for listening to their users.​
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?2

I am planning to leave Virgin immediately if they cannot give an absolute assurance that records of my internet usage will not be sold to advertisers and god-knows-who-else. I don't want anybody knowing how much time I spend on here, for a start!
 
I've just switched to Virgin and will ensure I opt out (even thought it should be an opt in system). If they don't offer an opt out and start sending my personal browsing to Phorm then I will cancel my contract on the spot.
 
There are a few things about this that I don't get.

1. How are the adverts delivered?
2. Haven't Hitwise been doing this, or something very similar, for years?
 
There are a few things about this that I don't get.

1. How are the adverts delivered?
2. Haven't Hitwise been doing this, or something very similar, for years?
In answer to my own questions :
1. The ads are delivered on websites that have decided to use Phorm.
2. Whilst Hitwise seems to track usage in a similar fashion to Phorm, it doesn't serve ads.

As for the traffic being anonymous. A while back, AOL accidently posted the search history of some of its users, and although AOL didn't release specific user information, it was trivial to find out who the user was just by looking at their google searches.

How many times do you type your own address into Google Maps?
 
Apparently you can opt out of this bollocks. I've not found out how though, as of yet.
 
This has been all over the place for the past few weeks old boy ;) :p

Anyone using Firefox can opt themselves out with this extension: www.dephormation.org.uk

There still needs to be a way to opt out at the system level though, but this will get you by while the ISP's get their arses whooped by their customers.
 
Great, I'm with virgin, so first they crippled our connection (down to about 5-15kbps) for 2 months, now they're going to track everything we look at, what next, seriously...
 
Great, I'm with virgin, so first they crippled our connection (down to about 5-15kbps) for 2 months, now they're going to track everything we look at, what next, seriously...

Probably a customer satisfaction survey.

I got on recently after making a complaint. The survey asks all kinds of questions about; how they handled the complaint, the results etc.

Thing is I never got a response about the complaint, let alone anything done about it. :rolleyes:
 
Great, I'm with virgin, so first they crippled our connection (down to about 5-15kbps) for 2 months, now they're going to track everything we look at, what next, seriously...
Well, technically Virgin aren't going to track you, but Phorm will assign you an identifying number and the kind of things this number looks at on the net will feed you relevant advertising.

It's complete crap, yes the same thing basically already exists in many ways, but these ways are all blockable by me. I can deny cookies, use AdBlock to block entire domains etc. The thing with this is it's at the network level, there is no out unless they actually pull my network lead out of the Phorm box sitting at the exchange and route it directly out to the internet, as it bloody well should be.

BTW, BT have cunningly called it BT Webwise and tied it in with their apparent phishing protection, so you see, it's all for your own good :rolleyes:
 
Probably a customer satisfaction survey.

I got on recently after making a complaint. The survey asks all kinds of questions about; how they handled the complaint, the results etc.

Thing is I never got a response about the complaint, let alone anything done about it. :rolleyes:

I send 3 emails, on the 3rd, I got an automated reply that offered no help at all...

My dad rang them 4 times, the first 2, they cut us off after being on hold for 8 and 15 minutes...

The 3rd they said it must be something to do with our computers network, the fact that I have a mac (I'm not joking...), or that we were using both my mac and my dad's PC at the same time...

On the 4th phone call they actually acknowledged a fault with the connection and said it would be fixed within the next week, 3 weeks later we had our connection back :D
 
... and then you have TalkTalk... Lets not even go there. Thankfully I'm not with them, the GF is though. Wow... Just, Wow. We have Tiscali at work and I'd kill for this over TalkTalk.
 
I think the best that you guys can do is to vote with your feet. If my ISP starts doing something similar (bethere), then I'm going to look elsewhere.
 
Things like this really, really bug me, i've been reading about it the last 2 days, and i just don't get it. This is just another company making money from cr4p!

I dont want adverts period, let alone specially targeted adverts, if i want something i do the research for it, i do the price comparisons around the stores and websites for it,

same with the bloody post office, they are paid to deliver junk, it all goes in the bin, and the special ones that provide envelopes get as much junk mail i can stuff in back to them.

I read a quote somewhere, "its like having your postman open all your mail so he can put junk mail that relates to what you've been posted through your letter box"

Great!!!

Imagine how good search engines would be if, when you search for a product, its the manufacturer of that product thats top of the list. instead of page 4 of the search results, due to all the "check me i can find you a better price than you can" pointless sites.

And what about people that have 1 computer for the household, dad happens to get into browsing some scantily clad women, next morning little jimmy is doing his homework on the computer and he's getting d1ldo adds?

Dont start on parental control tools, as a backup ploy to defend the parent, hows this for parental control, lock away computer!!!

You see how much this gets up my back?

<deep breath> <deep breath>

i signed the 10 downing st petition for this earlier today

off to enhance calm now.....
 
i signed the 10 downing st petition for this earlier today
What? Another pointless petition?

As much as I find Phorm's business distasteful, they aren't breaking any laws. Even if they were to break the law, then I'm pretty confident that they'd be brought to justice.
Whining to the government about a deal signed between your ISP and Phorm will not help. The best thing to do is to leave your ISP if they are one of the ones that have signed a deal with Phorm.
 
What? Another pointless petition?

As much as I find Phorm's business distasteful, they aren't breaking any laws. Even if they were to break the law, then I'm pretty confident that they'd be brought to justice.
Whining to the government about a deal signed between your ISP and Phorm will not help. The best thing to do is to leave your ISP if they are one of the ones that have signed a deal with Phorm.

Have you read further into this? even if you opt out your still involved, a cookie is what determines if your in or out. aka always in as this requires processing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7301379.stm

also check the "see also" links

dont you kinda not trust an ex spyware vendor??
 
Have you read further into this? even if you opt out your still involved, a cookie is what determines if your in or out. aka always in as this requires processing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7301379.stm

also check the "see also" links

dont you kinda not trust an ex spyware vendor??
Yeah, but nobody is being forced to use Talk Talk, Virgin or BT. There are still plenty of ISPs who aren't using Phorm.
 
The people in this country need to realise that to get a good ISP, you need to spend more cash.

I was with Plusnet, on a medium package, and the service was crap. It was slow, it was cheap. I left.

Now I'm with Vivaciti - I pay £28 a month. I get regular download speeds of 500-600-700 kb/sec, upload speeds of 60kb/sec - and they're sure as hell not selling my browsing pattern to advertising companies. If you're paying less than half that, you're going to get someone guilty of the 'up-to 8 meg' con, with poor service, crap customer support etc.

I'm sure you can luck-out and get good service for a low price somewhere - but with internet services, hosting, servers etc etc - you get what you pay for. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
 
Your theory falls short tho, im on Virgin VIP+ £80 Package (all TV, movies/sports, V+ box, 2nd box upstairs, and internet), 20mb connection is £35 of that.


Were already thinking about going to sky but you need BT with that deal so cant win there either
 
You want to spend £6 more than me, for a connection 4x faster? You're not being realistic. And how much of that 24 meg do you ACTUALLY get? Half? A quarter? I get 75%+ of the speed advertised, 24/7.

Doug
 
Who said Want to? ive been with virgiin / telewest for years, it does help if you actually read what is typed instead of assuming,

Lets break this down

"You want to spend £6 more than me," <- no want, i do!!

"for a connection 4x faster?" 4x the speed of yours for an extra £6 who wouldn't? that is economical sence.

"You're not being realistic. And how much of that 24 meg do you ACTUALLY get?"

were back to the reading whats written again, ITS 20MB!!!! and I actually get between 17/22Mb/ sec, yes i can download 700mb in around 10 mins!!!

Half? A quarter? I get 75%+ of the speed advertised, 24/7.

I got 80/100% 24/7/365

Sounds like YOU are the one being ripped off! paying £6 less than me or what you actually get. I also get a £15/m contribution from my employer, so for arguments sake lets call it a 20mb for £20 connection.

Doug, you know nothing about me, you know nothing about what i do for a living. You clearly havent done any research on the subject, i also imagine you get pride from flaming forum noobs by replying with your uneducated guesses.
 
you know nothing about what i do for a living.

What does that have to do about anything? Fair play to you - you're the first person I've seen who thinks they're getting what's advertised from Virgin - unfortunately, all recent reviews suggest you are the exception, and not the rule. I HAVE done my research, I HAVE read the comparative analysis - virgin (and Be) despite advertising 24 meg connections are actually providing an average of about 6-8. For arguments sake, you're '20' meg connection costs £35. Doesn't matter who pays. That's what it costs.

Let's compare, shall we, on average, what people get with Virgin

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/isp/compare.html?isp_7=1&isp_25=1&isp_84=1&isp_6=1&commit=Compare

Customer service - less than 50%, reliability - 60%, Speed, 50%.


Not great, is it? Hows your traffic shaping going? How do you like your surfing habbits being sold to an advertising company? Keep searching that database, you will find that cheap ISP's are at the bottom, and the best ISP's cost a few more quid. It's a basic fact of the business.

Yes, you can download 700mb in 10 minutes. I downloaded 700 mb in 17 minutes yesterday ( 720 MB actually) . Sorry - you're not getting the speeds advertised. 700mb in 10 minutes is approx 1100 kb/sec. About half what you claim to be getting. A 20 meg connection should get that file in 6 minutes.

And if you think that was a flame, then you really ARE a forum noob. I'd suggest some thicker skin (resorting to the 'you don't know me' line is rather childish) - and, to be honest, getting only half the speeds your paying for by your own numbers, a different ISP.

Doug
 
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