Power consuption of next-gen Haswell chips for rMBP

[mg428]

I am considering buying either 13 or 15 inch rMBP and with regard to the former something from Anandtech's review has caught my attention:

"By far the biggest issue with buying the 13-inch MacBook Pro with Retina Display is that you know, in about a year, it'll be updated with even better hardware. It's very clear to me that the 13-inch rMBP was built with Haswell in mind. Without enough room for a discrete GPU, a CPU with significantly faster processor graphics (~2x in the case of Haswell) will open up the 13 to even more customers. Haswell should boast improvements in idle power, however since it's still built on Intel's 22nm process (like Ivy Bridge) it's not abundantly clear to me how active power will be impacted. Looking at the thermal data for the 13-inch rMBP alone leaves me comfortable saying there's some room to introduce more power hungry silicon without making the system unusable."

1) Considering his assumption that due to thermal data on current 13 inch power hungry silicon is likely to be introduced based on 22nm as in Ivy Bridge, does he mean that battery life will likely be shorter or we cannot know this now?

2) What is the likelihood that 13 inch rMBP will include quad-core Haswell processors?

3) Let's assume in the next-gen 13-inch rMBPs there will an option for dual-core Haswell and quad-core Ivy Bridge, is it possible to know which one would likely perform better if they have similar clock speeds?

Thanks and merry X-mas to you all!

 

[nill1234]

I think intel will slightly increasy the performance by 5-10% and minimize the power consumption. Because the power of todays cpus are far enough to compete even heavy tasks. The problem is the power consumption because there is no big evolution in the battery sector.

 

[TweakOnline]

So at least we get 30 min more battery life?

 

[A Hebrew]

Apple won't put Ivy Bridge quad core into a new rMBP when Haswell comes out. Heck, they won't even put a quad core into the 13" rMBP when Haswell comes out. They seem to spec up computers as the size gets bigger, also I do not know how well the form factor would handle it.

 

[mg428]

Apple won't put Ivy Bridge quad core into a new rMBP when Haswell comes out.

I can assume that as well.

Heck, they won't even put a quad core into the 13" rMBP when Haswell comes out.

What is your assumption based on?



Does anyone have any estimation on whether dual core Haswell will be more or less the same as quad core Ivy Bridge, perhaps if you have any comparitive knowledge on previous and next generation Intel processors?

I am trying to find out, if I want 13-inch rMBP due to its smaller size but would like to have the power of the quad-core processors in 15-inch rMBP, then, would the next-rMBP equipped with Haswell processors would perform more or less the same as today's 15-inch, and if so, whether this would happen with the battery power trade-off which I guess Anandtech implies as a possibility in his review.

 

[mg428]

Any comment on the below?

Does anyone have any estimation on whether dual core Haswell will be more or less the same as quad core Ivy Bridge, perhaps if you have any comparitive knowledge on previous and next generation Intel processors?

I am trying to find out, if I want 13-inch rMBP due to its smaller size but would like to have the power of the quad-core processors in 15-inch rMBP, then, would the next-rMBP equipped with Haswell processors perform more or less the same as today's 15-inch, and if so, whether this would happen with the battery power trade-off which I guess Anandtech implies as a possibility in his review.[/QUOTE]

 

[Ploki]

Haswell will offer aproximately 10-15% performance increase for same TDP.

2009 QuadCore Mac Pro still fell short to 2008 base 8core. And Nehalem was one of the "BIG THINGS" performance-wise. And it was more expensive. And it offered LESS than previous 8core model.
Even 2010 QuadCore Mac Pro still fell short to 2008 base 8core!
And the base dualcpu Mac Pro (2times as expensive!) barely outperformed the 2008 high-end 3.2ghz model.

Haswell promises a lot for integrated graphics and ultrabooks.

Battery power tradeoff isn't a compromise Apple is willing to take, obviously. (Link to glued non-replacable battery)

Not a chance it will offer the performance of Ivy Bridge quad core in dual core form. perhaps 30% performance increase CPU + GPU combined, it won't reach it though, especially considering the rMBP dedicated GPU.

My guess is also MBA will receive an update first.

 

[mg428]

Haswell will offer aproximately 10-15% performance increase for same TDP.

2009 QuadCore Mac Pro still fell short to 2008 base 8core. And Nehalem was one of the "BIG THINGS" performance-wise. And it was more expensive. And it offered LESS than previous 8core model.
Even 2010 QuadCore Mac Pro still fell short to 2008 base 8core!
And the base dualcpu Mac Pro (2times as expensive!) barely outperformed the 2008 high-end 3.2ghz model.

Haswell promises a lot for integrated graphics and ultrabooks.

Battery power tradeoff isn't a compromise Apple is willing to take, obviously. (Link to glued non-replacable battery)

Not a chance it will offer the performance of Ivy Bridge quad core in dual core form. perhaps 30% performance increase CPU + GPU combined, it won't reach it though, especially considering the rMBP dedicated GPU.

My guess is also MBA will receive an update first.

Thank you for your comment.

What is the likelihood that next 13-inch rMBP would be updated with:

1) quad-core Ivy Bridge,
2) dual-core Haswell,
3) quad-core Haswell; and

would such new configuration, under each scenerio, perform better or worse than today's base model rMBP 15-inch?

 

[Ploki]

Since 15" introduced quad-cores, the performance gap between 13" and 15" widened significantly.

But even then, the High-end late 2008 (2.8 c2d) still outperformed 2010 high-end 13", although just slightly. (big reason for that was that 13" was limping behind with Core architecture still...)

Since the introduction of quad-core 15", early 2011 model (thats almost two years now!) still outperforms all 13" MacBooks.

Chance of 13" outperforming a base retina mbp anytime soon are non-existent in my opinion.

There is purely a theoretical chance that 13" could see a quad-core Ivy Bridge chip, the 2.1 ghz version of it specifically (it has the same TDP), however IF apple intended that, I see no reason why they would not offer it already.

Any Haswell is going to happen the moment chips are available. I suspect it wont be before April 2013.

As for Quad-Core haswell? If you ask me, it's almost DUE that 13" gets a QuadCore. I hope apple thinks that as well. However given that they can get a lot of juice out of the same TDP and # of cores with Haswell, they might as well go the dualcore route.

 

[Saladinos]

Thank you for your comment.

What is the likelihood that next 13-inch rMBP would be updated with:

1) quad-core Ivy Bridge,
2) dual-core Haswell,
3) quad-core Haswell; and

would such new configuration, under each scenerio, perform better or worse than today's base model rMBP 15-inch?

What are you looking for, numbers? Nobody can give you those - we don't know when or how any RMBP refreshes will happen. The parts you talk about exist only as highly confidential engineering samples that nobody on this board likely has access to (and if they did, they wouldn't tell you what you're asking).

What we can tell you is what has already been said - most industry watchers expect a modest improvement with Haswell focussing on the integrated GPU (not the CPU). If Apple keeps their current configuration, the 13" model will max at 2 cores and will lack a discrete GPU. Nobody knows any more than that.

It seems to me like you want somebody to tell you to wait for the next 13" because it'll be faster than today's 15". That looks extremely unlikely.

 

[throAU]

Speculating on intel's future processor roadmap is pointless. For all we know, Haswell may have problems with yields, bugs, etc. that make them undesirable compared to ivy bridge.

If you need a machine today: buy one today.

If you don't need a machine for 12 months: buy one later.

 

[Spetsnazos]

my prediction is that Haswell is getting overhyped just like ivy bridge was over hyped.

1. Haswell will have better battery life by probably 10%
2. Haswell i_GPU performance will probably be better by about 25%
3. CPU performance will be super marginal, maybe 5%

I'm not that excited about it...

 

[pgiguere1]

Quad-core is a possibility with new quad-core 35W TDP chips like the Core i7-3612QM and Core i7-3632QM.

I think Apple will likely wait for Haswell to update the 13" rMBP, but it's possible that a comparable Haswell CPU will make it into BTO options.

It's unlikely on the base model given that such a CPU would be considerably more expensive than the dual-core i5 currently in use, but I see no reason for Apple not to at least offer it as an extra.

The ASUS Zenbook U500VZ (released) has the same thickness as the 13" rMBP and is offered with the two quad-core 35W Core i7 CPUs mentioned previously. It's a 15" laptop so it may sound not totally fair to compare, but the laptop has a tapered design and holds two standard 2.5" drives plus discrete graphics (GT 650M).

 

[Ploki]

Quad-core is a possibility with new quad-core 35W TDP chips like the Core i7-3612QM and Core i7-3632QM.

I think Apple will likely wait for Haswell to update the 13" rMBP, but it's possible that a comparable Haswell CPU will make it into BTO options.

It's unlikely on the base model given that such a CPU would be considerably more expensive than the dual-core i5 currently in use, but I see no reason for Apple not to at least offer it as an extra.

The ASUS Zenbook U500VZ (released) has the same thickness as the 13" rMBP and is offered with the two quad-core 35W Core i7 CPUs mentioned previously. It's a 15" laptop so it may sound not totally fair to compare, but the laptop has a tapered design and holds two standard 2.5" drives plus discrete graphics (GT 650M).

See that's what I thought. But for example, rMBP 15" is maxed with 2.7 CPU and the top best CPU released AFTER was 2.8ghz (Which I suspect might be a candidate for a speedbump)

but 3612QM was released well before 13" retina was released, so I see no reason why they didn't use it already for the high-end retina.

As for Zenbook, it's 20mm thick almost all across the laptop, except in the front. Retina 15" is 19mm thick all across.

So imo it's more fair to compare the retina 15" to zenbook. They're pretty similarly spec'd except for the screen and far better cpu in the retina. It's tapered just as much as to house a 30% less battery.

I do like the dual 2.5" drive option.
seems unlikely though? probably mSata + 2.5".
It also seem to only do 8gb of ram, 4gb of which is permanently installed.
The base model is also 2100$. Compared to retina 15" which comes with a better GPU?

It also seems to be 2.2kg heavy, compared to 15" 2.0kg retina and 1.65kg 13" retina.

I don't think its comparable to the 13" retina at all, it's clearly a competitor for the 15" retina and is also priced as such.

 

[mg428]

3612QM was released well before 13" retina was released, so I see no reason why they didn't use it already for the high-end retina.

I believe Anandtech has an answer to your question:

"While the thermal budget in the 15-inch rMBP was 45W, the move to a 13-inch chassis drops it to 35W. Thankfully, Intel does offer 35W quad-core CPUs, a first for Intel starting with the Ivy Bridge introduction. Unfortunately Apple didn't seem keen on using them. For starters, having a quad-core upgrade option would likely add complexity to the lineup, and secondly the 35W quad-core parts are cost prohibitive. At almost 70% more expensive than the dual-core Core i5 Apple used in the standard configuration 13-inch rMBP, I can see why Apple wouldn't want to throw a 35W quad-core CPU in for free. At the same time, I would've at least liked to see a build-to-order quad-core option"

Is what you refer to as "3612QM" the same as Anandtech refers under "Intel does offer 35W quad-core CPUs"?

 

[Ploki]

I believe Anandtech has an answer to your question:

"While the thermal budget in the 15-inch rMBP was 45W, the move to a 13-inch chassis drops it to 35W. Thankfully, Intel does offer 35W quad-core CPUs, a first for Intel starting with the Ivy Bridge introduction. Unfortunately Apple didn't seem keen on using them. For starters, having a quad-core upgrade option would likely add complexity to the lineup, and secondly the 35W quad-core parts are cost prohibitive. At almost 70% more expensive than the dual-core Core i5 Apple used in the standard configuration 13-inch rMBP, I can see why Apple wouldn't want to throw a 35W quad-core CPU in for free. At the same time, I would've at least liked to see a build-to-order quad-core option"

Is what you refer to as "3612QM" the same as Anandtech refers under "Intel does offer 35W quad-core CPUs"?

Yep, thats the one i meant.

However it's not that more expensive than the dualcore i7 i believe?