Prepare for ludicrous speed: Ars reviews the 8-core Mac Pro

[VirtualRain]

Not much that hasn't been discussed here at length already...

http://arstechnica.com/apple/reviews/2009/04/266ghz-8-core-mac-pro-review.ars

Conclusion
There is no denying that the dual socket Mac Pro Nehalem Xeon is a beast of a machine for certain applications, and it will only get faster as software developers write better multithreaded code. It definitely isn't the best option for Photoshop or certain video tasks, but for 3D rendering and simulation with the right code base, it is monstrous. The case is still the model of good desktop design and, as the guy who's using the renderer most likely to be seen hyper-threading, the eight-core Nehalem Mac Pro is a personal dream machine.

But it's a dream that comes with a punishing pinch of reality: the price. Whether or not the new eight-core Mac Pro is competitively priced, its base price of $3400 puts it undeniably out-of-reach for most people. But it's what's not included in the base cost that really irks me. Looking at the four RAM slots in the four-core machines, the missing Firewire 400 ports, the lack of a mini DisplayPort-to-DVI adapter in the box, and the awful Geforce 120 card, it's hard not feeling nickel-and-dimed to death buying a Nehalem Mac Pro. I know I'm not alone, especially not in this economy. Anyone who wants to flame me should first check to see that they spent their own money on one of these. Let he who is without a corporate budget cast the first stone. If Apple wants to charge more, then they're going to have to earn it by making better graphics cards standard. As it is, they've got a great machine with not-so-great 3D options.

Now, let's all run out and picket our favorite software developers. We're here. We're multi-core. Get used to it.

The Good

Ridiculous speed for multi-threaded 3D rendering in certain applications
Even better internal layout than previous models
Still a very quiet workstation overall
Good power consumption-to-speed ratio

The Bad

Eight-core machines are very expensive
RAM slot count not well matched to triple-channel memory
No adapters included for mini DisplayPort to DVI
No workstation-class 3D card option and GT 120 graphics card is painfully underpowered
Currently, very few applications make full use of eight cores and sixteen threads

 

[Tallest Skil]

They're just so grievously uninformed, you know?

They claim that the 8-core is limited to 16GB (when Apple specifically sells 32) and the 4-core is limited to 8GB.

 

[Tesselator]

They're just so grievously uninformed, you know?

They claim that the 8-core is limited to 16GB (when Apple specifically sells 32) and the 4-core is limited to 8GB.

I agree. I couldn't get past the 4th page. The reviewer was like some pop-culture mod (as in rockers vs. mods, mod) just regurgitating what he's read on-line without any in-depth understanding of what he was talking about. That's how it read to me at least. Oh well, I guess that's typical for on-line blogging these days.

His one grace was a benchmark from Houdini.

 

[Igantius]

I may have missed another mention of this elsewhere in the review, but when it was talking about RAM, the article said this limitation was to do with your finances, rather than a technical limitation.

 

[Tallest Skil]

I may have missed another mention of this elsewhere in the review, but when it was talking about RAM, the article said this limitation was to do with your finances, rather than a technical limitation.

Who is this guy to know MY finances? How does he know what I can afford? It is not his business to dictate what I can and cannot buy. If I genuinely have the money, I will buy it. Screw what he says "can" be bought; I want to know what the machine can DO.

He may as well have said the Mac Pro doesn't even exist because some people can't afford it.

 

[Tesselator]

Who is this guy to know MY finances? How does he know what I can afford? It is not his business to dictate what I can and cannot buy. If I genuinely have the money, I will buy it. Screw what he says "can" be bought; I want to know what the machine can DO.

He may as well have said the Mac Pro doesn't even exist because some people can't afford it.

I was about to make this same reply but I felt it would be butting in and dogging the guy too hard. For me the article sucked for that very reason - being that it was full of lots of cultural based reasoning (blather) instead of nice technical specifications laid out in an easily digestible manner. I had to trudge through too much assumption and personal (limited) reference of understanding. That site isn't all bad though. There's an OK article by a different author he links to on the same site about multithreading.

 

[Igantius]

Who is this guy to know MY finances? How does he know what I can afford? It is not his business to dictate what I can and cannot buy. If I genuinely have the money, I will buy it. Screw what he says "can" be bought; I want to know what the machine can DO.

He may as well have said the Mac Pro doesn't even exist because some people can't afford it.

Well, this is what was said:

...I have a minor complaint about the Mac Pro's RAM: it only has space for four modules in the four-core machine (this eight-core has eight slots). Unless you're made of money, that limits the four-core Mac Pro to 8GB and the eight-core to 16GB:

The way I interpreted this was the reviewer commenting that due to RAM pricing, it's not going to be realistic for many people to have more memory in these machines at the moment.

Quite a few people (here, Barefeats, OWC etc) have been commenting on the price of memory, particularly with reference to the quad being less economical than the oct. Some posts here, are by people who have said that they’re going to hang on with 6GB (or whatever) and are waiting for 4GB modules being cheaper before buying. Not saying that these people are typical, but I inferred from their remarks that the reason they have X amount of RAM is chiefly to do with money – so arguably, the reviewer’s remarks have some truth.

Obviously, I can't speak for the reviewer as I'm not him, but generally speaking, a hack would target their article at the intended audience that their publication is reaching - so I wouldn’t take any remarks about finances to heart, as I doubt they were singling you out.

 

[v0n]

Who is this guy to know MY finances? How does he know what I can afford? It is not his business to dictate what I can and cannot buy. If I genuinely have the money, I will buy it. Screw what he says "can" be bought; I want to know what the machine can DO.
.

I think you are missing the point -
24Gb running at maximum speed in octo MP08 would cost you $888
24Gb running at maximum speed in octo MP09 would cost you $3238
I think it's safe to say it's out of reach of regular punter. And in that respect the author is right.

In similar fashion - previous 4 cores had 8 memory slots, thus all you needed to have 16Gb at maximum speed was 8 chips of 2Gb at total cost of $504. In new 4 core MP, you have 4 slots, and yes - you can pack it to brim with 16Gb of memory at slower speed (in non triple channel configuration) but it will cost you $2160.

There was no reason to design 4 memory slots in 4 core MP09
There was no reason to design 4 and 8 memory slots for machine with triple channel configuration
It was decision that someone at Apple made with full awareness, against any reasonable spec and with intent to specifically limit your options, force you to buy top shelf memory at crazy prices and devide "pro pro" workstations from "student with deep wallet" workstation.

 

[shinchan72]

I think you are missing the point -
24Gb running at maximum speed in octo MP08 would cost you $888
24Gb running at maximum speed in octo MP09 would cost you $3238
I think it's safe to say it's out of reach of regular punter. And in that respect the author is right.

In similar fashion - previous 4 cores had 8 memory slots, thus all you needed to have 16Gb at maximum speed was 8 chips of 2Gb at total cost of $504. In new 4 core MP, you have 4 slots, and yes - you can pack it to brim with 16Gb of memory at slower speed (in non triple channel configuration) but it will cost you $2160.

There was no reason to design 4 memory slots in 4 core MP09
There was no reason to design 4 and 8 memory slots for machine with triple channel configuration
It was decision that someone at Apple made with full awareness, against any reasonable spec and with intent to specifically limit your options, force you to buy top shelf memory at crazy prices and devide "pro pro" workstations from "student with deep wallet" workstation.

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/85MP3S4M12GK/

x2 = $1500 in = 24GB and in 3 channel optimum speeds at that

Exaggerate much ? Or were you assuming that no one would think of buying RAM from anywhere but Apple ?

The article comes off as amateurish and uninformed at best , inserting their own opinion that someone buying a high end professional workstation to begin with wouldn't be able to spend 700-1500 more to get large amounts of RAM shows just how ignorant the reviewer was.

 

[bozz2006]

they've gone to plaid!

 

[iMacmatician]

I pretty much agree with this review.

 

[dogbait]

Agree with the review. The pricing is a large step up from the previous generation.

Disclaimer: Own a 2006 and 2008 Mac Pro.

 

[VirtualRain]

You guys are a tough audience!

I found the review great. If I had to recommend just one review to someone before making a purchase decision this is it. IMHO, Barefeats reviews can't hold a candle to Ars or Anand in polish, journalism, thoroughness or analysis.

I wish Anand would do an in-depth review, but lacking that, this is the next best thing.

BTW, the author of the article frequents this forum and praises the level of expertise present here.

 

[Umbongo]

You guys are a tough audience!

I found the review great. If I had to recommend just one review to someone before making a purchase decision this is it. IMHO, Barefeats reviews can't hold a candle to Ars or Anand in polish, journalism, thoroughness or analysis.

I wish Anand would do an in-depth review, but lacking that, this is the next best thing.

BTW, the author of the article frequents this forum and praises the level of expertise present here.

I agree. Getting the video card stuff in writing from a premier tech site is good too.

 

[jjahshik32]

I thought the review was the best I've read.

Minus that one minor mistake.

 

[vultureparade]

I enjoyed the review. I thought the writing was good, the benchmarks were well-chosen, and the focus was where it should be.

 

[Sdashiki]

they've gone to plaid!

DAMMMMIT!!!!!!

 

[trancepriest]

x2 = $1500 in = 24GB and in 3 channel optimum speeds at that

Exaggerate much ? Or were you assuming that no one would think of buying RAM from anywhere but Apple ?

These 4GB sticks are worthless... very bad quality. I ordered 8x4GB only 5 sticks worked.. ordered 2 more and both didn't work. So 50% failure rate.

 

[jjahshik32]

I noticed that the reviewer said if you buy RAM sticks without a thermal sensor your fans will rev up constantly.

I've read a couple of threads where some users are complaining that their mac pro's fan runs on super high all the time. I wonder if they bought some cheap ram sticks on eBay or something.

 

[Tesselator]

IMHO, Barefeats reviews can't hold a candle to Ars or Anand in polish, journalism, thoroughness or analysis.

Even with all the bad that's been said about this review, I can agree with that! The barefeats site seems to stuck in a kind of religious vortex. <shrug>

A shame really. Your comment speaks more to the current state of technical writing and impartial reporting/critiquing that's available to us Apple users. Sad.

BTW, the author of the article frequents this forum and praises the level of expertise present here.

I figured as much. Which is why I'm holding myself back.

 

[PowerBookRelic]

I can agree that the price is exceptional compared to last years, but I guess I step back and think that it isn't too bad. There is a trend. That trend is down. In the mid-90's my family bought a consumer Sony Vaio desktop computer (144Mhz P with MMX I think, LOL) with a monitor, printer, and scanner for just under $6k. So yes, this comparison means almost nothing, but to me it shows that we are getting a lot of computer for much less that anyone would have imagined in the past. A more recent example, in 2004 I bought my PBG4 15" and it was just under $3k, which now you can get for $2k. So the prices are trending in our favor. Yes, right now it may seem high, but you are getting a super computer for an excellent price. As far as comparing to a non-Mac, well that is the price we pay....

 

[jjahshik32]

I can agree that the price is exceptional compared to last years, but I guess I step back and think that it isn't too bad. There is a trend. That trend is down. In the mid-90's my family bought a consumer Sony Vaio desktop computer (144Mhz P with MMX I think, LOL) with a monitor, printer, and scanner for just under $6k. So yes, this comparison means almost nothing, but to me it shows that we are getting a lot of computer for much less that anyone would have imagined in the past. A more recent example, in 2004 I bought my PBG4 15" and it was just under $3k, which now you can get for $2k. So the prices are trending in our favor. Yes, right now it may seem high, but you are getting a super computer for an excellent price. As far as comparing to a non-Mac, well that is the price we pay....

Were not comparing computers from nearly 5 years ago to now, especially (powerbook) different hardware from a different manufacturer.

Most of us are comparing prices from last year to this year. As to why the sudden spike in the price? Maybe it is due to the economy or its due to apple going green or losing a discount deal from Intel? Who knows, but we know one thing its more expensive than last year or even 3 years ago.

 

[groovdudeyo]

they've gone to plaid!

my first thought

 

[PowerBookRelic]

Were not comparing computers from nearly 5 years ago to now, especially (powerbook) different hardware from a different manufacturer.

Most of us are comparing prices from last year to this year. As to why the sudden spike in the price? Maybe it is due to the economy or its due to apple going green or losing a discount deal from Intel? Who knows, but we know one thing its more expensive than last year or even 3 years ago.

And I agree completely. I didn't mean to compare those products to the MP, and the new pricing doesn't make sense. I guess I only made my post because while I was reading the thread I got flashbacks to the price of things in the past. As I have little need for a beast computer like that, I am just waiting to find one with high enough specs, used, in the $1500 range.

 

[noushy]

Ram Prices

Ram prices will continue to drop, and in fact, now that all the manufacturers can sell the Xeon 55XX series chips, I expect to see the economies of scale to help us with the prices. People are running DDR3 1066 ECC registered which seems to work fine (other than it appears to run hotter, requiring heat spreaders). I suspect a slight hit in latency, but nothing that will really be noticed. I have seen 4gb ecc registered dimms go for as cheap as $200 each. I think what that barrier is broken and we see prices in the $100-$150, many people will upgrade to 4GB configs (I am looking at 24GB for my dual proc. setup).

Peace,
Noushy