Questions about my Sawtooth hard drive upgrade options

[James Gryphon]

I've been thinking for a while that I'd like to get a new drive, and a certain click sound that I've noticed the last few days has reinforced that opinion. Maybe my recent experience with noiseless solid state drives has just got me paranoid, but better safe than sorry!

From my research and reading here and other places, it looks like I have a few options. I thought I'd run through them, and then see what blanks y'all can fill in for me. It might be hoping too much, but maybe this could become a public resource for at least G4 tower users.

1) Get another IDE hard drive, similar to the one I'm replacing.
Pros: They come relatively cheap, and wouldn't be hard to set up.
Cons: Likely to be relatively old itself; maybe not much better than the previous one. Punts the problem back - eventually (Lord willing) it'll need to be replaced, and then I'm back to considering other options.

2) Use a USB flash drive.
Pros: I already have some, including one that has an OS 9 installation on it.
Cons: Very slow with USB 1. Takes up a valuable USB port. Still works tolerably in OS 9, but OS X would not be viable.

3) Get a SATA hard drive and find a way to connect it:
a) Get a SATA-IDE adapter and plug it into the IDE slot.
Pros: Uses the IDE slot, so nothing is wasted.
Cons: I'm not sure which adapter would be best for this kind of thing; the supply of 1-star reviews for virtually anything you can get on Amazon is not helpful. IDE speed caps the potential performance gains from a SATA drive.
b) Get some kind of SATA-compatible PCI card.
Pros: Said to be fast, probably the highest-performing option.
Cons: Potentially expensive. Mac-compatible cards apparently aren't easy to come by, and I admit I'm not reassured by the talk of trying to 'flash' non-compatible cards. Process doesn't seem well-documented. Also, I'm not sure which cards to get or to look for.

4) Connect an SD card adapter to the IDE slot.
Pros: I have one. It's easy to swap out SD cards if wanted.
Cons: I haven't tested the adapter I have recently, and I'm not sure if it'd boot from it. SD cards, depending on their make, can be flaky and die more quickly than expected. This might be better for another kind of storage (e.g. replacing the defunct Zip drive?), without trying to make it my main drive. Performance is card-dependent and questionable; probably faster than a flash drive, but it's questionable whether it'll be as good as an IDE hard drive.

5) Find some storage device compatible with FireWire.
Pros: It would be a good way to use the unique internal FireWire port.
Cons: FW400 things aren't the easiest to come by these days, and are likely to be old themselves. I know very little about this expansion option at present, and there could be unforeseen other problems. Although faster than USB, slower than IDE.

6) Something else unforeseen

-

After sorting out the connector trouble, there's also a question of asking which modern drives are worth the investment. I admit not being the best-informed yet about all of the options (my technological footing usually being firmly set at least 10 years in the past), but I do know there's no point in getting something that's so fast that the Sawtooth can't keep up with it, unless it offers other advantages. Are there any reliable, affordable options that y'all have experience with for this kind of project?

Thanks in advance for any input that y'all can provide.

 

[eyoungren]

I think probably SATA is your best option, either HD or SSD. That can be done a few ways…

1. PCI-SATA card to SATA HD - All you need is in this link: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/guide-to-flashing-pc-sil3112-sata-cards-for-mac.1690231/ It's not hard and the price of the card runs around $10-20.

2. PCI-SATA card w/eSATA adapter - You can get a bracket with a eSATA plug and run a SATA cable from there to the PCI-SATA card. That lets you attach any eSATA NAS or SATA HD enclosure. I've got this setup with my B&W G3 which has a 2TB RAID enclosure attached.

3. PCI-SATA card w/SATA SSD.

4. mSATA SSD with a mSATA/IDE converter.

Both 3 and 4 are generally laptop size drives, but it'll work. For #4, the converter box is around $10.

Biting the bullet for a PCI-SATA card is going to keep you compatible. It means you can buy almost any (but not all) SSDs or HDs. Compare that to trying to find a PATA SSD or old IDE HD stock.

 

[bobesch]

Simply an IDE to SATA adapter with a currently cheap 2,5" SSD #11 ?

(@TheShortTimer recommended another "Manhattan"-called adapter in that thread, which has a slightly different design for plugging, but that might be important when fitting in the converter+SSD-combo)

 

[TheShortTimer]

1) Get another IDE hard drive, similar to the one I'm replacing.
Pros: They come relatively cheap, and wouldn't be hard to set up.
Cons: Likely to be relatively old itself; maybe not much better than the previous one. Punts the problem back - eventually (Lord willing) it'll need to be replaced, and then I'm back to considering other options.

I also share the viewpoint that looking for an IDE HDD is a false economy. An unused drive would be more expensive and slower than a SATA HDD or SSD connected to your Sawtooth with a SATA to IDE converter.

Takes up a valuable USB port.

Pick up a cheap USB splitter, they're a necessity with Macs anyway, due to the paltry amount of ports.

Simply an IDE to SATA adapter with a currently cheap 2,5" SSD #11 ?

(@TheShortTimer recommended another "Manhattan"-called adapter in that thread, which has a slightly different design for plugging, but that might be important when fitting in the converter+SSD-combo)

Yep, the Manhattan SATA 300 to IDE converter. I'm using one in my iMac G3/350 and a couple in my QuickSilver. In the case of the latter, one converter is connected to a spinner and the other to an SSD. At first I was using a pair of spinners but the case wouldn't close with both HDDs and their converters installed, so I replaced the IDE cable with a longer one and positioned the second HDD in a makeshift position so that the door could close.

 

[James Gryphon]

I thought I'd check back in here to let everyone know how things are progressing.

Based on the feedback above, I decided, at least for the time being, to go the SATA/IDE adapter route. I'm still not knowledgeable enough about the PCI card-flashing setup to feel confident in doing it, and regardless, if I do it later on, it's still nice to have something to fit the existing IDE slot.

From the multitude of options on the market, I narrowed it down to adapters people here had actually used with success, the 'JP-103'-type mentioned by bobesch, or the Manhattan favored by TheShortTimer. The latter is more expensive, but I settled on it because I figured that the quality and reliability in manufacturing would make the difference. Reviews of the generic JP-103 adapter suggests that it's a tossup whether the board will be competently made, and I figured it was worth to pay a little extra to get something that's known to be good. Unfortunately, CablesOnline didn't have them in stock, but I was able to find a deal on eBay where someone was selling a pair of them for $40 total.

For the drive, I settled on a 240GB WD Green SSD. Although I'm not sure what the best SSD brand is, WD drives have a good record with me so far, the very high star ratings were somewhat reassuring, and overall I felt more confident with that than something like a Kingston, a SanDisk, or a minor brand. Some people might think that 240GB isn't much, but it's more than enough to store everything on all of my IDE hard drives, with plenty to spare.

Now that I have all the parts sitting on my desk, the next step will be to transfer data from the IDE hard drive. Thanks to my poor motor skills, I managed to strip one of the female Molex connectors from inside the G4, so this will be more difficult than it would be in an ideal setting (where I could simply plug both drives in at the same time). As it is, I'll likely transfer all the data on the hard drive to some external source, disconnect it, attach the SATA adapter and SSD in its place, format and set up the SSD, and then reinstall needed items from that external source back onto it. I haven't done this yet, but I intend to report back on the results as soon as possible.

Incidentally, I thought I'd mention I picked up a Sabrent 4-port USB hub to augment the G4's limited ports; it seems to work great so far.

 

[Tratkazir_the_1st]

3) Get a SATA hard drive and find a way to connect it:

M.B. think about this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carte-LSI-...roller-RAID-SATA-3Gb-s-SAS-PCI-X/333460702476

 

[James Gryphon]

M.B. think about this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carte-LSI-...roller-RAID-SATA-3Gb-s-SAS-PCI-X/333460702476

I didn't think of that one specifically, but I did briefly consider a card solution, and that may still be the best option in the long run.

- - -

As promised, here's the update on how things've been going since setup, using method 3a.

The data transfer took a while, but I eventually was able to figure out a satisfactory and reasonably quick way of getting it done, using another Mac with USB 2.0 and my Unitek hard drive reader.

Setting the SSD up proved to be more of a challenge. What I eventually ended up doing was restoring the OS X partition via SuperDuper, and just copying the OS 9 files over to the 9 partition. Earlier attempts showed me that you don't want to be too meticulous in your 9 copy (else it'll save a lot of metadata that will get in your way later on). After that I needed to rebuild the 9 desktop, but now it seems to work reasonably well.

That said, here's some of the problems I ran into, for others' edification and commentary.

1) At one point it used to be common knowledge, but I forgot: many older Macs can't handle more than 128GB on a hard drive on the IDE bus. As such, my getting a 240 SSD was major league overkill for that usage case. It isn't wasted money if I end up using it for something else (like a PCI card slot), but for the IDE hookup it's a waste.
2) The performance gain from an SSD on the Sawtooth bus seems minimal or negligible. I won't categorically say that there isn't one, but it's possible that a standard HD is enough to saturate it. However, there may still be other reasons to get a SSD, and I feel it's nicer to have it than not. Newer G4s with faster buses (like the MDD) might see more gain.
3) The 'ominous click' I heard apparently wasn't even the hard drive, but the Zip drive, which I already knew didn't work. Live and learn!
4) The most serious problem I've had so far, presently unresolved: at least when booting from the 9 partition, the machine seems to fail to recognize the SSD after restarting (tossing the 'missing startup folder' icon), but not when booting for the first time. Anyone who's used to emulators is probably familiar with not being able to restart the natural way, so now that I'm aware of the problem I can work around it, but this is not desirable behavior.

 

[eyoungren]

I didn't think of that one specifically, but I did briefly consider a card solution, and that may still be the best option in the long run.

- - -

As promised, here's the update on how things've been going since setup, using method 3a.

The data transfer took a while, but I eventually was able to figure out a satisfactory and reasonably quick way of getting it done, using another Mac with USB 2.0 and my Unitek hard drive reader.

Setting the SSD up proved to be more of a challenge. What I eventually ended up doing was restoring the OS X partition via SuperDuper, and just copying the OS 9 files over to the 9 partition. Earlier attempts showed me that you don't want to be too meticulous in your 9 copy (else it'll save a lot of metadata that will get in your way later on). After that I needed to rebuild the 9 desktop, but now it seems to work reasonably well.

That said, here's some of the problems I ran into, for others' edification and commentary.

1) At one point it used to be common knowledge, but I forgot: many older Macs can't handle more than 128GB on a hard drive on the IDE bus. As such, my getting a 240 SSD was major league overkill for that usage case. It isn't wasted money if I end up using it for something else (like a PCI card slot), but for the IDE hookup it's a waste.
2) The performance gain from an SSD on the Sawtooth bus seems minimal or negligible. I won't categorically say that there isn't one, but it's possible that a standard HD is enough to saturate it. However, there may still be other reasons to get a SSD, and I feel it's nicer to have it than not. Newer G4s with faster buses (like the MDD) might see more gain.
3) The 'ominous click' I heard apparently wasn't even the hard drive, but the Zip drive, which I already knew didn't work. Live and learn!
4) The most serious problem I've had so far, presently unresolved: at least when booting from the 9 partition, the machine seems to fail to recognize the SSD after restarting (tossing the 'missing startup folder' icon), but not when booting for the first time. Anyone who's used to emulators is probably familiar with not being able to restart the natural way, so now that I'm aware of the problem I can work around it, but this is not desirable behavior.

1) You can get around the 128GB limit with this: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/speedtools-ata-hi-cap-driver

Thanks for bringing that up though. I had not considered that a SATA/IDE adapter would not remove that limit. I'm so used to working around this barrier using PCI-SATA cards I didn't think about it.

4) Have you tried using the system to set the Startup drive before rebooting?

 

[TheShortTimer]

1) At one point it used to be common knowledge, but I forgot: many older Macs can't handle more than 128GB on a hard drive on the IDE bus. As such, my getting a 240 SSD was major league overkill for that usage case. It isn't wasted money if I end up using it for something else (like a PCI card slot), but for the IDE hookup it's a waste.

Fear not, as @eyoungren has already pointed out, there is a workaround available so that you can circumvent the drive capacity restriction.

2) The performance gain from an SSD on the Sawtooth bus seems minimal or negligible. I won't categorically say that there isn't one, but it's possible that a standard HD is enough to saturate it. However, there may still be other reasons to get a SSD, and I feel it's nicer to have it than not. Newer G4s with faster buses (like the MDD) might see more gain.

I've definitely experienced a performance gain using SSD's with my Mac Mini G4 and my QuickSilver and whilst the bus limitations on my iMac G3 prevent the SSD from achieving its maximum potential, it's still superior to what the factory default IDE spinner could have ever achieved and I've noticed various subtle improvements. Especially with video playback.

3) The 'ominous click' I heard apparently wasn't even the hard drive, but the Zip drive, which I already knew didn't work. Live and learn!

You do indeed but look at the positives: at this stage, you're better off with a SATA HDD/SSD than an IDE spinner.

4) The most serious problem I've had so far, presently unresolved: at least when booting from the 9 partition, the machine seems to fail to recognize the SSD after restarting (tossing the 'missing startup folder' icon), but not when booting for the first time. Anyone who's used to emulators is probably familiar with not being able to restart the natural way, so now that I'm aware of the problem I can work around it, but this is not desirable behavior.

This is strange - I'm able to warm boot to the OS 9 partitions on my SSD equipped iMac G3 and QuickSilver without any problems. Perhaps something went wrong with setting up the partition?

 

[James Gryphon]

1) You can get around the 128GB limit with this: https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/speedtools-ata-hi-cap-driver

I appreciate hearing about that. It isn't an urgent problem, since 128GB is still plenty for the purpose, but you like to get every byte you paid for.

4) Have you tried using the system to set the Startup drive before rebooting?

Ja, I've tried that most ways, but without much luck. More details below.

This is strange - I'm able to warm boot to the OS 9 partitions on my SSD equipped iMac G3 and QuickSilver without any problems. Perhaps something went wrong with setting up the partition?

Well, I'll talk about some of my testing today, recounting events to the best of my memory, and let y'all judge from the symptoms.

Last night I moved my current OS 9 system folder over to my '9 flash drive', to use it as a testing platform. My experience with that is that it will read the hard drive fine on the first boot from USB, but it won't show up at all afterwards (even in Drive Setup).

So, my USB testing done, at least for the time being, I rebooted, first taking the flash drive out so that it wouldn't start from it. At that point, I got the familiar flashing folder. After rebooting again, this time with the option key, the startup manager stalled out with a perpetually spinning watch, not showing any viable drives.

After a few attempts like this, I gave up and put the Tiger DVD in the drive, fully expecting it would start up from it on my next attempt. It did boot from OS X, but not from the DVD; now that a DVD was in the drive, it for some reason recognized the main disk and booted up from the X partition (probably because it's the first one).

I went to Startup Disk, set it for the same X partition I was using (for good measure), and restarted to briefly see the flashing system folder, before it fell back and started from the DVD.

I wanted to get a wide range of possible boot outcomes, so on the DVD, I set the 9 partition for the boot disk and restarted. That time it didn't even show the flashing icon before booting straight from the DVD.

So, I believe I set the startup disk for the X partition, then shut down and started up again, to have it easily boot as intended. In the X partition I set the startup disk for the 9 partition, shut down, powered up again, and held down Option to attempt to load the startup manager. Once again, I got a perpetually spinning watch, with no disks at all - which I found a little odd, since the DVD was still in.

So I shut down/started up yet again, and this time ran into a 'grey screen of death'. It simply didn't do anything, whether show any icons or even boot from the DVD.

Finally, I powered off/on yet one more time, to see a happy Mac and a quick and painless boot into OS 9.

I'm not familiar with the arcane details of the classic Mac boot sequence, but it seems obvious that there's some sort of problem here, and since the DVD and even the USB flash drive work fine, and the old hard drive worked fine, the most likely point of failure has something pertaining with the new disk (and/or the adapter). I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of firmware or driver support trouble, but that wouldn't explain why it does usually work on the initial startup, or why the DVD being put in allowed it to detect it after the flash drive was removed.

What's interesting and possibly informative is that X (on the DVD) can apparently always detect the disk, whether the machine will boot from it or not, but 9 (on the flash drive), after being rebooted, won't show anything on that bus. I'm curious whether it would detect it if I booted from an OS 9 CD.

EDIT: After running into this problem again, I thought I'd mention it also sometimes fails to wake up from sleep mode, exhibiting a grey screen similar to the failed boot problem. This is a shot in the dark, but I'm guessing that it attempts to wake the hard drive up and can't find it.

I've definitely experienced a performance gain using SSD's with my Mac Mini G4 and my QuickSilver and whilst the bus limitations on my iMac G3 prevent the SSD from achieving its maximum potential, it's still superior to what the factory default IDE spinner could have ever achieved and I've noticed various subtle improvements. Especially with video playback.

Now that I've had a little more time with it, I do think it (especially in X) runs a little more smoothly than it did before. It is subtle, though.

 

[James Gryphon]

It's been a few days and it seems that the problems have now been resolved, so in the interest of maximizing the positive potential from this thread, I thought it's only right to publicize what was done.

I got my father (my usual consultant for hardware trouble) to help me out, and we took the following steps.

1) Always motor and mechnically-challenged, when I tried setting it up myself, I couldn't get the Berg connector to plug in all the way on the Manhattan card. He was able to do that more thoroughly. If it doesn't look like it's completely on, it probably isn't, so this was likely the main help towards resolving the trouble.
2) I had ignorantly plugged the card into what apparently was the secondary ("slave") section on the IDE cable. (Documentation talking about the primary being at the "top" or the "bottom" didn't help clear that up for me.) However, hearing it was at the 'end of the cable' and the secondary was 'in the middle' did. I'm not sure whether this switch makes a big difference, but I'm sure it didn't hurt. Also, I think they used to say the primary could be a bit faster on certain machines, which, if nothing else, is a positive placebo.

The SSD now looks to be working as expected, with proper restarting and recovery from sleep states.

On another note, I'd mention that the performance gain is greater than I initially gave it credit for in at least one major area: starting up Classic used to be an interminably long process, to the point where it would be quicker to just restart in OS 9, but now it comes up quite snappily.

 

[TheShortTimer]

Thanks for updating us with the new developments, it's great to know that everything is working properly for you now!