Real GPU in 13"

[fenderbass146]

Do you think we will finally get decent graphics in the 13" pro. (I am not talking dedicated, just good integrated) Was there anything holding them back from putting the Iris Pro in the 13" before?


My hope is the new Macbook Air's get Intel HD 6000, the 13" rMBR gets last years Iris Pro graphics or something with the same performance and it's own dedicated memory (i.e. Intel HD 5200) and the low end 15" gets this years Intel HD 6200.

I don't see it happening but it would be nice. It also be nice if they had low and high end graphics options for both the 13" and the 15" now that dedicated graphics have gotten so good. It seems possible to me.

Was there any reason they couldn't put the Iris Pro graphics in the 13"

 

[okrelayer]

I was just thinking this. That would definitely be enough to separate the air and pro line up! That would be awesome!

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Yes there was TDP

Do you think we will finally get decent graphics in the 13" pro. (I am not talking dedicated, just good integrated) Was there anything holding them back from putting the Iris Pro in the 13" before?


My hope is the new Macbook Air's get Intel HD 6000, the 13" rMBR gets last years Iris Pro graphics or something with the same performance and it's own dedicated memory (i.e. Intel HD 5200) and the low end 15" gets this years Intel HD 6200.

I don't see it happening but it would be nice. It also be nice if they had low and high end graphics options for both the 13" and the 15" now that dedicated graphics have gotten so good. It seems possible to me.

Was there any reason they couldn't put the Iris Pro graphics in the 13"

Basically the IRIS PRO is only on the quad core chip which did not have the Die size, power envelope or thermal characteristics for the 13 inch rMBP.

This will continue for the Broadwell release.... I suppose Skylake we may seem some differences but Intel will need to up their game on iGPU with what NVIDIA are producing at the moment...

 

[fenderbass146]

Basically the IRIS PRO is only on the quad core chip which did not have the Die size, power envelope or thermal characteristics for the 13 inch rMBP.

This will continue for the Broadwell release.... I suppose Skylake we may seem some differences but Intel will need to up their game on iGPU with what NVIDIA are producing at the moment...

Ahh that makes since. It be nice if they made dual core pro graphics chips. It be great in a a lot of computers both Mac and pc.

All I know is something has to happen. The air has to get cheaper and less powerful or the 13" pro needs to get better. They are essentially the same machine minus retina. If the Air gets retina today there will be nothing besides a small difference in size between the two.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

It wouldn't you know...

Ahh that makes since. It be nice if they made dual core pro graphics chips. It be great in a a lot of computers both Mac and pc.

All I know is something has to happen. The air has to get cheaper and less powerful or the 13" pro needs to get better. They are essentially the same machine minus retina. If the Air gets retina today there will be nothing besides a small difference in size between the two.

Almost no PC makers use more than the HD4600 graphics chips in any but the most high end of their products.... The Iris and Iris Pro were made for apple basically and no one else has been prepared to pay the premium to put better iGPU in their notebooks....

 

[fenderbass146]

Almost no PC makers use more than the HD4600 graphics chips in any but the most high end of their products.... The Iriks and Iris Pro were made for apple basically and no one else has been prepared to pay the premium to put better iGPU in their notebooks....

probably right but you never know. A computer like that dell 13" xps would be nice to have that.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

The XPS 13

probably right but you never know. A computer like that dell 13" xps would be nice to have that.

....Got the HD5500 graphics on a broadwell ULV chip, it's slightly better than the Iris in the haswell rMBP but after 18 months it really should be...

 

[fenderbass146]

Would just giving the gpu some dedicated memory be a big improvement? Even if it's the Intel hd 5100 or 5500? I don't know a lot about comouter engineering but seems like it be a nice benefit.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Well....

Would just giving the gpu some dedicated memory be a big improvement? Even if it's the Intel hd 5100 or 5500? I don't know a lot about comouter engineering but seems like it be a nice benefit.

The Iris Pro gets pretty good performance just with 128mb of eDRAM on the die. This is shared between the CPU and GPU for improved performance through caching when needed. So in theory yes, but I have no idea what that does to thermals, chip size, power draw, cost etc etc....

 

[fenderbass146]

Intel Iris 6100 in new Macbook Pro 13". Wonder how that compares.

 

[nirvanemesis]

So now that they updated the 13" pro...any word on gpu 6100?

Yup, they have it.

http://store.apple.com/us/buy-mac/macbook-pro

 

[dusk007]

Would just giving the gpu some dedicated memory be a big improvement? Even if it's the Intel hd 5100 or 5500? I don't know a lot about comouter engineering but seems like it be a nice benefit.

That is just not happening. You need space to put the memory controller which takes space and needs power (almost a third of the total). Then the extra chips would need space on the logicboard and the extra routing of the copper connects.
Dedicated memory is just not worth it. Shared memory offers much better cost and power efficiency. Also currently all the direction is more unification (virtually too) and not hardware separation. Currently memory is shared in hardware but in the virtual world it is still separate. For computing and using the GPU for non graphic related processing power unified memory that allows the GPU and CPU to write to the same memory space is a benefit.

Iris Pro as Intel has it is just a small cache. That just holds frequently used data and if it has the data there is no trip to the main memory necessary. Helps take a lot of load of the main memory. That is effectively shared memory. It is not just for the GPU and not a big chunk on a seperate memory controller.
That type helps a lot for a big GPU like the 5100 which has 40EUs. It is 70% slower than the 5200 (also same 40 EUs) so the edram makes a huge difference even if it is only 128MB.
With Skylake there is supposed to be a 64MB version with the low 28W TDP that the 13 rMBP uses. That is still some time in the future though.
Broadwell will get most of its extra speed not from there but just by requiring less TDP for CPU which will offer just more power to be spent on GPU computing. Which is also a huge problem for these small chips. After CPU is done doing its part there is just not that much power left unfortunately which is why the HD 5000 in the Air is really bad even though the chip is insanely huge.

 

[fenderbass146]

That is just not happening. You need space to put the memory controller which takes space and needs power (almost a third of the total). Then the extra chips would need space on the logicboard and the extra routing of the copper connects.
Dedicated memory is just not worth it. Shared memory offers much better cost and power efficiency. Also currently all the direction is more unification (virtually too) and not hardware separation. Currently memory is shared in hardware but in the virtual world it is still separate. For computing and using the GPU for non graphic related processing power unified memory that allows the GPU and CPU to write to the same memory space is a benefit.

Iris Pro as Intel has it is just a small cache. That just holds frequently used data and if it has the data there is no trip to the main memory necessary. Helps take a lot of load of the main memory. That is effectively shared memory. It is not just for the GPU and not a big chunk on a seperate memory controller.
That type helps a lot for a big GPU like the 5100 which has 40EUs. It is 70% slower than the 5200 (also same 40 EUs) so the edram makes a huge difference even if it is only 128MB.
With Skylake there is supposed to be a 64MB version with the low 28W TDP that the 13 rMBP uses. That is still some time in the future though.
Broadwell will get most of its extra speed not from there but just by requiring less TDP for CPU which will offer just more power to be spent on GPU computing. Which is also a huge problem for these small chips. After CPU is done doing its part there is just not that much power left unfortunately which is why the HD 5000 in the Air is really bad even though the chip is insanely huge.

Great answer thanks... Didn't think it would have that much higher power requirements or space needed. If anyone can do it though Apple could lol

 

[dusk007]

No Intel would have to. They build the chips. Apple can ask them to build a certain kind of chip with certain features though. They are a big customer.

 

[0x100]

Apple are more than able with size, heat and other parameters to put a dedicated chip/quadcore in the 13". They don't do it because then it would eat sales from the 15".

 

[leman]

Currently memory is shared in hardware but in the virtual world it is still separate. For computing and using the GPU for non graphic related processing power unified memory that allows the GPU and CPU to write to the same memory space is a benefit.

To expand on this, I'd like to note that Broadwell CPUs offer full virtual memory coherence between GPU and CPU (if I understood the Intel docs correctly). This would mean that the GPU can 'see' the same memory as the software (this was not the case previously). As such, it might bring some very interesting benefits. First, the entire concept of video memory becomes outdated (because your application memory IS the video memory). Second, the driver does not need to copy the data anymore (which is very important for OS X who uses 3D acceleration and textures for its UI). Third, the data can be paged out/compressed just as normal data. Combined, these things could bring some significant performance but also efficiency enhancements to OS X.

Please keep in mind though that the above is merely my speculation from the quick reading over Intel development documentation for the new GPUs. I might have misunderstood something.

 

[Wilson1313]

Here's a great article from AnandTech about the iGPU improvements in broadwell: looks like some very impressive results. Honestly unless you are gaming or doing major video editing (how many people really fit into this category...) the iGPU is plenty powerful. If you need a macbook now, just buy it now. There is always something better in the future. Skylake is overhyped.