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Semi Pro Camera

S

sud

macrumors regular
Original poster
Apr 26, 2008
118
0
Australia
This is my first video camera post here at Mac rumors, hope you guys can help.

Im in the market for a semi pro hd video camera, can you advise me which is the best to go for in my price range AD$5000.00.

Main features im looking for:

1. Must be Hd 1080i/p
2. Must be editable in FCP live on the camera or on the computer with out converting to other formats, if it can stream to the computer and be edited live even better.
3. Must have a built in hard disk or the ability to add one on.
4. Must have a FW port or port that can stream live to the computer's hard drive for storage.
5. Would be good if I could use it with an external power source.
5. I have not preference to brand at this stage as I have not cam gear, but in saying that I do want good gear.


It will be used mostly out doors so will also need a good bag to cary the cam and accessories.


Any help much appreciated.


Thanks
 
I have not heard of any HD formats that can be edited without conversion. It seems you can choose either HDV (mpeg-2, tape) or AVCHD (mpeg-4, sdhc/hard drive) and convert to AIC for Final Cut Express or proRES for Final Cut Pro.
 
Actually JVC have just recently released two cameras that would ideally fit your spec, the GY-HM100 and the GY-HM700. I don’t know too much about them but on paper they look very very good. Same bit rate as the Sony EX1 (35 Mb/s) but recording on the most more cost effective SDHC cards.

See:

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2009/releases/solid_state_release.html

For JVC’s press release on them.

Don’t know where you are based but in the UK Creative Video have them both:

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=jvc_gy-hm700

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=jvc_gy-hm100

Pick whichever one fits your form factor.

These are the only ones I am aware of that record to a format directly editable in FCP (ignoring HDV which is tape based and therefore doesn't fit the OP specs).
 
Having now realised your an Ozzi and spotted the budget the GY-HM100 should be your best bet given your requirements (and sits just on the AD$5000 price point)
 
cpcarrot said:
Actually JVC have just recently released two cameras that would ideally fit your spec, the GY-HM100 and the GY-HM700. I don’t know too much about them but on paper they look very very good. Same bit rate as the Sony EX1 (35 Mb/s) but recording on the most more cost effective SDHC cards.

See:

http://pro.jvc.com/pro/pr/2009/releases/solid_state_release.html

For JVC’s press release on them.

Don’t know where you are based but in the UK Creative Video have them both:

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=jvc_gy-hm700

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/view_item_cat.php?catalogue_number=jvc_gy-hm100

Pick whichever one fits your form factor.

These are the only ones I am aware of that record to a format directly editable in FCP (ignoring HDV which is tape based and therefore doesn't fit the OP specs).
Click to expand...


Looks great, thank you. Looks like the one for me :)

Will keep you updated
 
For what it's worth, Final Cut Pro can edit AVCHD/HDV natively, if you want it to. Transcoding is an option. It works better for HDV than for AVCHD, though.
 
check out the used market for a Panasonic HVX-200/200A. it's a great HD cam and shoots DVCProHD.
Click to expand...

And FCP will edit DVCPRO-HD natively without a problem, even on faster G4s.

But with all of Panasonic's P2 cameras, do keep in mind that shoot on solid-state media (P2 cards) and they are expensive, so you'd want to set a budget aside for that.

Panasonic did recently release their new E-Series P2 cards, which are supposedly faster while being much cheaper than the old ones - the only apparent drawback being that they have less of a usable life (5 years). I can't speak from experience here, but a 32GB card (about 60 minutes of footage, depending on format) is $625.00 US vs. $1,650.00 US for an old-style card.
 
bigbossbmb said:
...and the 5 years figure is for daily use

it won't be a problem for 99.9% of users.
Click to expand...



Thank you everyone for your input, I kind of like the JVC that cpcarrot mentioned, seems to be pretty good.

Looked at some of the footage on youtube plus read some reviews.

Do any of you have any thoughts on the JVC?


Thanks
 
I shoot a bunch with the Panasonic 200 and its a great camera. New their like $6000 but they have been out for a number of years and used prices are approachable in the low twos, But Panasonic's idea of high def is 720 and your specs say you want 1080 which would steer you more to the Sony stuff.
 
what are you talking about? the HVX shoots 1080p24 and 1080i60. true DVCPro is sub-sampled to 1280x1080 and the Sony's shoot full raster (1920x1080), but XDCam is also 35Mb/s instead of DVCPro's 100Mb/s.

It's a trade off, but you can't say the HVX doesn't shoot 1080.
 
iPhoneNYC said:
I shoot a bunch with the Panasonic 200 and its a great camera. New their like $6000 but they have been out for a number of years and used prices are approachable in the low twos, But Panasonic's idea of high def is 720 and your specs say you want 1080 which would steer you more to the Sony stuff.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes:

720 isn't "Panasonic's idea of high def" it is high def. Please step away from the marketing department kool-aid


Lethal
 
If we're talking about what is and is not Hi-def, most pros won't call anything that uses chroma sub-sampling of less than 4:2:2 HD, and technically one could argue that the formats that subsample to non-square pixels like that aren't really HD. That said, nobody serious in the industry would call HDV or AVCHD formats worth bothering with. And the color fidelity and image fidelity that the HVX produces probably far outstrip everything mentioned here, regardless of pixel count. As has been said, you can buy a 12MP P&S, but it won't outshoot a 6 MP SLR.

Out of curiosity, what do you need 1080i/p for? Your flexibility on interlacing seems to imply that you could live without full 1080.

1080i is a lot like 720p functionally (or real pixel count), anyway.
 
TheStrudel said:
If we're talking about what is and is not Hi-def, most pros won't call anything that uses chroma sub-sampling of less than 4:2:2 HD, and technically one could argue that the formats that subsample to non-square pixels like that aren't really HD.
Click to expand...
Errr... not really.

I don't know anyone that would say HDCAM isn't HD. There is debate about what's 'broadcast quality' and what's not but there isn't a debate about what's HD and what's not. Just like there's no debate about whether or not VHS is SD even though there are higher quality SD formats out there.

That said, nobody serious in the industry would call HDV or AVCHD formats worth bothering with.
Click to expand...
I guess the people that worked on movies like Crank 2 or Flags of Our Fathers and TV shows like Discovery's Deadliest Catch aren't serious in the industry then?

And the color fidelity and image fidelity that the HVX produces probably far outstrip everything mentioned here, regardless of pixel count. As has been said, you can buy a 12MP P&S, but it won't outshoot a 6 MP SLR.
Click to expand...
Not really, no. It might be easier to see the image each camera produces if you take off your Panasonic fanboy glasses though. ;)


Lethal
 
You seriously think an HV30 would compare? I don't even own a panasonic camera, but I have worked with HDV (XH-A1) and it can be a huge pain. AVCHD is worse. You lose a ton of image fidelity with all that compression.

HDCAM I will grant you is very much a professional format, but it also stands head and shoulders above the others mentioned. It also can record 4:2:2 or even 4:4:4 in the improved spec - original dating from the late 90s - and when it was originally deployed, it was a lot better than most competing formats. I never said anything about HDCAM being inferior. But long GOP formats - despite their usage in more and more applications - aren't top notch.

As for shows like Deadliest Catch, I think they would use better cameras if they could - it's less a budgetary issue than the conditions they're under.
 
As far as tape based formats HDV is the best on a budget. I would love to shoot HDCAM but its just not in my budget.

LOL @ HDV not being a serious pro format, I cannot count the number of V1Us, 7ZUs, JVC 250s that are being used by pros in broadcast.

HDCAM is obviously a better format, but it costs over $80,000 to have a half decent HDCAM setup.
 
True. But DVCPro, XDCAM, and quite a few other formats - DP I know in NYC says everything's going to RED these days - can be had at a very small fraction of that price, a price many people are willing to pay to get away from tape and HDV compression. As mentioned, that HVX can be had for less than $6,000. And as many will say, with the amount of stuff being chroma keyed to save money these days, that HDV compression can prove problematic.

Good point about the broadcast. That tops out at 720p anyway, and if my own experience is anything to go by, compressed by providers to the degree where macroblocking is visible, and I'm seeing this on FiOS. It kind of ticks me off that they sell you more channels, but compress them all to the point where you see compression artifacts. So yeah, HDV can get up to broadcast quality, but they'd want to avoid it for stuff with greenscreen work.
 
TheStrudel said:
You seriously think an HV30 would compare? I don't even own a panasonic camera, but I have worked with HDV (XH-A1) and it can be a huge pain. AVCHD is worse. You lose a ton of image fidelity with all that compression.
Click to expand...
I never said an HV30 would compare. But you did say the HVX would beat anything mentioned in this thread hands down and that's just not accurate.

I never said anything about HDCAM being inferior. But long GOP formats - despite their usage in more and more applications - aren't top notch.
Click to expand...
You said that pros scoffed at anything that's less than 4:2:2 (HDCAM is 3:1:1) and anything that's not full raster (which includes HDCAM and DVCPro HD) might not even be considered HD. Again, just not accurate.

As for shows like Deadliest Catch, I think they would use better cameras if they could - it's less a budgetary issue than the conditions they're under.
Click to expand...
So people who are "serious in the industry" can use HDV cameras then?

If you want to talk about a specific pros and cons of certain formats and/or cameras then go for it. But making sweeping, generalized (and in some cases derogatory) statements doesn't help foster a meaningful discussion.


Macmaniac said:
As far as tape based formats HDV is the best on a budget. I would love to shoot HDCAM but its just not in my budget.

LOL @ HDV not being a serious pro format, I cannot count the number of V1Us, 7ZUs, JVC 250s that are being used by pros in broadcast.
Click to expand...
HDV isn't a serious pro format though. It is an affordable format that can provide 'good enough' quality which is one reason you see it used so much.


Lethal
 
TheStrudel said:
Out of curiosity, what do you need 1080i/p for? Your flexibility on interlacing seems to imply that you could live without full 1080.

1080i is a lot like 720p functionally (or real pixel count), anyway.
Click to expand...

We will be using the camera for Doco's, will be traveling a lot and would expect it to be at least broadcast HD quality, that said I did not realize that broadcast HD cut off at 720p.

Reading all of what everyone has mentioned about the different formats and standards has confused me even more.

What must I buy, I need to edit it in FCP we do not have a mac pro which is why I wanted to edit without converting into other formats first. The machine we will be editing with for portability and budget is a new macbook unibody 2.4ghz, 4gb ram with an ssd drive.

Quality is top of the list thats why I thought I needed 1080i/p.

Thanks again!
 
sud said:
We will be using the camera for Doco's, will be traveling a lot...
Click to expand...

A tape format (i.e. HDV) might be best then.

sud said:
I did not realize that broadcast HD cut off at 720p.
Click to expand...

"Cut off" in which direction? Broadcast HD standards are 720p59.94/720p50 and 1080i59.94/1080i50 (the slash denoting different regions — Australia being in the latter).

sud said:
Reading all of what everyone has mentioned about the different formats and standards has confused me even more.

What must I buy
Click to expand...

Maybe a book on video production... If you're aiming to use this in a professional capacity you need to do a lot more research. Who is going to be operating the camera? They should have at least a working knowledge, and it would be better to seek advice from them than to try to go it alone.
 
The great thing about buying a camera today is that there are so many options to choose from. The bad thing about buying a camera today is that there are so many options to choose from. ;)

What kind of documentary work are you going to be doing? Will you be doing a lot of low light shootings? Will you need a long zoom lens? Will you be in extreme cold, dusty, or humid conditions? Will you be 'out in the field' shooting for extended periods of time (weeks/months)? If so, are you planning on keeping all your shot footage with you or do you plan on shipping it back to your home/office periodically?

The $5k you said was the budget in the OP is that just for the camera or is that for a complete camera kit (camera, tripod, filters, extra batteries, travel cases for everything, etc.,)? Do you already have sufficient audio gear? Lighting?


Lethal
 
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