Several questions

[-igor]

I apologise in advance if these questions are repetitive in the forums but I need some help deciding on a digital camcorder. First, I have heard of interchangable lenses and thus, an option for an adaptor for film camera lenses and would like to know what cameras have this option. Secondly, I don't know much about how frame rates work with digital but I assume 24fps gives the video a more film like effect. A large variety of framerates would also be preferable. Macro is a must, but I suppose if interchangable lenses are an option, this goes without saying. I assume most have zoom, but to me macro is a much bigger priority. I suppose HD would be a good option but I guess they start at some reallly ridiculous price.

Anyway, my budget is about 1500-2000. Sorry again for my ignorance of the digital world, I am just a big fan of celluloid looking to experiment in video (without bothering to start at something too low end). Any suggestions for cameras and also any other help would be much appreciated!

 

[LethalWolfe]

$2k will get you a Canon HV20 and a 35mm adapter. You'll probably spend close to another $2k on things like extra batteries, tripod, rails, portable HD monitor, etc.,. Hopefully you have, or have access too, lens otherwise you need to buy/rent those too. This also doesn't include any lighting or audio gear. If you are a big fan of the celluloid look you have to know how to light a scene/subject ("painting with light" is often used to describe what cinematographers do).


Lethal

 

[-igor]

Thanks so much for your reply! Just to let you know, I am simply looking for a camera right now and have access and experience to/in most of those things.

Does the HV20 have a macro feature that is already there? Is a portable monitor really necessary, won't the LCD screen suffice? Can you get a variety of interchangable lenses for it? Does it have variable framerates to do slowmotion and single frame? Why is it considered a consumer camcorder? Would it be better to get a professional one that is not HD? What is the real difference between consumer and professional now that the line seems so ambiguous?

 

[faustfire]

Thanks so much for your reply! Just to let you know, I am simply looking for a camera right now and have access and experience to/in most of those things.

Does the HV20 have a macro feature that is already there? Is a portable monitor really necessary, won't the LCD screen suffice? Can you get a variety of interchangable lenses for it? Does it have variable framerates to do slowmotion and single frame? Why is it considered a consumer camcorder? Would it be better to get a professional one that is not HD? What is the real difference between consumer and professional now that the line seems so ambiguous?

If you get an HD camera, that should take care of your macro needs to a point, as HD gives you the ability to zoom in on your subject. As for variable frame rates, to shoot slomo and at single frame intervals, your only real option is the Panasonic HVX200 which is way above the price range you are looking at.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Does the HV20 have a macro feature that is already there?

I'm not sure. But if you are using a 35mm adapter you'd need to use a macro lens.

Is a portable monitor really necessary, won't the LCD screen suffice?

The LCD screen is low res and tiny so if you are needing shallow depth of field and/or critical focus those will be very hard to do consistently via the LCD.

Can you get a variety of interchangable lenses for it?

Using the 35mm adapter you can put a variety of lenses on it.

Does it have variable framerates to do slowmotion and single frame?

AFAIK, no. The Panasonic HVX200 can do variable framerates, but it costs $5k (nearly $10k if you want to shoot HD) and that doesn't include the 35mm adapter.

Why is it considered a consumer camcorder?

Because it is a consumer camera.

Would it be better to get a professional one that is not HD?

The most popular indie video camera (the Panasonic DVX100) is already a grand over your budget and that doesn't include a 35mm adapter.

What is the real difference between consumer and professional now that the line seems so ambiguous?

Better imaging sensors, better glass, interchangeable lenses, better build quality, better reliability, better recording formats, XLR hookups, independent multi-channel audio, ability to set, send, and receive timecode, easily accessible manual controls, etc.,.

Basically the HV20 is somewhat of a fluke. Canon put a better than consumer grade imager in a consumer camera. By using a 35mm adapter you basically just use the HV20 as a recording device. Your zoom, focusing, and iris adjustments are all done on whatever lens you are using w/the adapter. You don't make those adjustments on the HV20 itself.


Lethal

 

[-igor]

The HV20 is quite convincing. I just kind of wish it had more features like variable framerates. Just to clear it up, when one refers to shutter speed doesn't it directly relate with the framerate, so 1/24 would be 24fps? This probably sounds really really stupid, but the AF on it is optional right? Lastly, I would like some sync sound with the camera to use as reference for ADR and foley. Henceforth, I do not need anything fancy like XLR inputs as I would never use the sync sound from the camera itself and do all audio in post. My question regarding this is, what kind of audio input is there exactly on the HV20. The only thing about it that it says on the Canon website is "microphone and headphone terminals" in the picture and "Audio DV: 16 bit (2ch) 48 kHz 12 bit (4ch) 32 kHz 4ch synchronous recording not possible HDV: MPEG1 Audio Layer II (2 ch) (4-channel playback of tapes containing 4-channel recordings possible)". I'm guessing the input and headphone is 1/8", which would suffice as there are probably XLR and 1/4 to 1/8 adaptors.

It's very difficult to decide and my intuitive side wants to just lose the HD and perhaps the 35mm adaptor to get a "professional" SD camcorder instead. Perhaps a GL2 or Sony PD150. Pros and cons for this?

 

[LethalWolfe]

The HV20 is quite convincing. I just kind of wish it had more features like variable framerates. Just to clear it up, when one refers to shutter speed doesn't it directly relate with the framerate, so 1/24 would be 24fps?

Shutter speed does not directly relate to frame rate and the typical shutter speed for a video camera if you are shooting 24fps is 1/48.

This probably sounds really really stupid, but the AF on it is optional right?

Yes.

Lastly, I would like some sync sound with the camera to use as reference for ADR and foley.

The HV20 does have "mic in" which is a 1/8" jack, so, yes you'd just need an adapter to plug your mic in.

It's very difficult to decide and my intuitive side wants to just lose the HD and perhaps the 35mm adaptor to get a "professional" SD camcorder instead. Perhaps a GL2 or Sony PD150. Pros and cons for this?

Even if you went w/one of those SD cameras (neither of which shoots at 24fps) you'd still need the 35mm adapter to help get the filmic look you are wanting.

Here are some links from dvinfo.net talking about the HV20+35mm adapter and the third one has a lot of good info about using 35mm in general.
HV20 link 1
HV20 Link 2
Alternative Imaging section


Lethal

 

[-igor]

Shutter speed does not directly relate to frame rate and the typical shutter speed for a video camera if you are shooting 24fps is 1/48.
Lethal

Sorry to get off topic, but the shutter rotates twice per frame at 1/48? Is the shutter speed variable on HV20? And if not is it simply set to 1/48? Lastly (i promise), are some 35mm adaptors "better" than others? What would be a good place to start looking for a reasonably priced one?

Anyway, thanks so much for your help. This dvinfo.net seems to have a lot of useful information I can benefit from at this point.

 

[ppc_michael]

About the need for an LCD monitor:

My "old" Sony HDR-HC1 has an "extended focus" button that enlarges the image in the LCD monitor so that you can see better what you're focusing on, and also it has peaking to "outline" the edges of what is in focus.

I kind of assumed all cameras have this these days, am I right? Because if so, that would seem to eliminate the need for an HD monitor during shooting.

 

[-igor]

Yeah, it also seems I don't really need to worry THAT much about monitoring on the go as I like just shooting a lot and then seeing it in post or whatever.

Also, I wanted to ask, if macro tubes are an option to avoid the price of a macro lens.

 

[faustfire]

Sorry to get off topic, but the shutter rotates twice per frame at 1/48? Is the shutter speed variable on HV20? And if not is it simply set to 1/48? Lastly (i promise), are some 35mm adaptors "better" than others? What would be a good place to start looking for a reasonably priced one?

Anyway, thanks so much for your help. This dvinfo.net seems to have a lot of useful information I can benefit from at this point.

The shutter speed on digital video cameras is variable. Check out dvxuser.com for info on 35mm adapters. You should be able to get a lot more information pertaining to your other questions here as well.

 

[LethalWolfe]

About the need for an LCD monitor:

My "old" Sony HDR-HC1 has an "extended focus" button that enlarges the image in the LCD monitor so that you can see better what you're focusing on, and also it has peaking to "outline" the edges of what is in focus.

I kind of assumed all cameras have this these days, am I right? Because if so, that would seem to eliminate the need for an HD monitor during shooting.

The HV20 has a focus assist feature as well, but from what I've read it's not very good when being used w/35mm adapters as the depth of field can be significantly more shallow than what focus assist was designed to handle.

Yeah, it also seems I don't really need to worry THAT much about monitoring on the go as I like just shooting a lot and then seeing it in post or whatever.

You want what you shoot to be in focus though, right?

Also, I wanted to ask, if macro tubes are an option to avoid the price of a macro lens.

No idea. That would probably be info you could find out at dvinfo.net though.


Lethal

 

[-igor]

You want what you shoot to be in focus though, right?
Lethal

I didn't know it is that bad that it has the potential to not show the focus on things. Wouldn't the viewfinder do the trick anyway?

 

[LethalWolfe]

I didn't know it is that bad that it has the potential to not show the focus on things. Wouldn't the viewfinder do the trick anyway?

When you start talking about working w/the shallow depths of field you can get using a 35mm adapter (or using a digital cinema camera like the Viper or Red One) and/or shooting things that are going to be shown on the big screen there aren't any electronic viewfinders that are could be called reliable.


Lethal

 

[Peel]

I didn't know it is that bad that it has the potential to not show the focus on things. Wouldn't the viewfinder do the trick anyway?

Remember that the veiewfinder isn't optical (like a digital SLR camera), it's simply another digital LCD screen, often with less resolution than the pull-out LCD screen. On the HV20 the viewfinder has 123,000 pixels vs the LCD screen's 211,000.

 

[-igor]

Yeah I kind of figured that myself a while after I posted. For some reason I unconsciously thought the viewfinder is optical. Anyway, I wouldn't have the means to carry around a monitor when just shooting by myself.