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stupid lawyers and their stupid tests

nbs2

nbs2

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Mar 31, 2004
2,719
491
A geographical oddity
In the spirit of anger that seems to be flowing through MR today, I found it appropriate that I recieved yet another invoice from Bar/Bri. For those of you who don't know what bar/bri is (the many blessed), ithe the bar review course that law students shell out for after they graduate from law school so that they are ready for the bar exam. Here is why I'm so frustrated - I have just finished dropping roughly $50-60k on my legal education (instate public), and now I'm gearing up to spend another $2300 on this stupid class.

Why on earth am I doing this? Because the bar passage rate is incredibly higer for students who take a bar review course than those who don't (of course, 95% of students take some sort of course....). This can only mean that my legal education is generally worthless. I mean, if one class is a statistically significant factor in passing the bar.....ARGH...:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
not that it helps with the money part, but my brother sped up all his bar bri review audio, so that he could listen to it more quickly. figure it might make it less painful to not take quite as long listening to the boring drawn out lectures.

good luck! ;)
 
The way I see it is you already have spent 60,000 so what is another 2300?? I mean really! When your talking about that much money then a couple thousand more doesn't really change anything. And if you don't pass the bar what was the 60,000 worth anyway! :)

Good luck on your test!! :)
 
OnceUGoMac said:
Why don't you sue your school, then. :b
Click to expand...

Actually, there's a lawsuit pending against Bar/Bri alleging that they've engaged in anti-competitive practices and used their monopoly in the bar prep business to unfairly raise prices...

Link
 
blackstone said:
Actually, there's a lawsuit pending against Bar/Bri alleging that they've engaged in anti-competitive practices and used their monopoly in the bar prep business to unfairly raise prices...

Link
Click to expand...

It's amusing that lawyers are suing the thing that made them lawyers.
 
nbs2 said:
ARGH...:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Click to expand...

The class has a market value of X because people are willing to pay X to learn techniques to prepare for the test. Not everybody performs well on standardized tests, so courses like this one were developed to help people learn the "tactics" involved in the bar exam and be a bit more systematic in their approach than they otherwise might be.

The purpose of law school is to teach you how to practice law. Whether you received the full value of the money you spent rests more squarely on how you studied, prepared for classes, participated, etc. It hinges in no way on the availability of services to help you prepare for the bar.

If you perform well on standardized tests and "know the material," then there's no reason you should have to take the prep course. If you don't perform well on standardized tests, then be grateful there's a proven resource available to help improve your odds of passing the bar.

$2300 is a lot of money, make no mistake, but how much income will you lose by having to wait to take the bar again should you fail? What law firm that you really want to work for also might pass you by in the interim? :eek:
 
Eh, one fat lawsuit check and you've paid all of your educational debt off. Why all the hubbuh?

I really dislike lawyers but am very glad one of my best friends is becoming one so I know there is one lawyer on Earth I can trust.
 
mac 2005 said:
The purpose of law school is to teach you how to practice law. Whether you received the full value of the money you spent rests more squarely on how you studied, prepared for classes, participated, etc. It hinges in no way on the availability of services to help you prepare for the bar.

If you perform well on standardized tests and "know the material," then there's no reason you should have to take the prep course. If you don't perform well on standardized tests, then be grateful there's a proven resource available to help improve your odds of passing the bar.
Click to expand...
That is the problem with the whole concept of the bar exam. First, a lot of law schools (including mine) really don't prepare you for the practice of law. There are a few things you can do - like a clinic, but that is limited in how far it will take you. I really think that anybody that can pass the bar is prepared for the practice of law. Only litigation is the one thing that a person wouldn't be prepped for, and that would be taken care of by the market.

And "knowing the material" and doing well on standardized tests really isn't sufficient. Law schools flat out don't teach the material, or if they do you are locked into a very rigid schedule (where you better hope that you take the right class the right semester). Remember law schools encourage students not to take just bar classes, but to diversify and learn a variety of material. The issue with the bar is that you have to learn what amounts to two different laws - the multistate information and your local information. That is in addition to the MPRE (ethics) exam that almost every state in the union requires. To pass the bar without a prep course requires getting a set of materials...
 
nbs2 said:
In the spirit of anger that seems to be flowing through MR today, I found it appropriate that I recieved yet another invoice from Bar/Bri. For those of you who don't know what bar/bri is (the many blessed), ithe the bar review course that law students shell out for after they graduate from law school so that they are ready for the bar exam. Here is why I'm so frustrated - I have just finished dropping roughly $50-60k on my legal education (instate public), and now I'm gearing up to spend another $2300 on this stupid class.

Why on earth am I doing this? Because the bar passage rate is incredibly higer for students who take a bar review course than those who don't (of course, 95% of students take some sort of course....). This can only mean that my legal education is generally worthless. I mean, if one class is a statistically significant factor in passing the bar.....ARGH...:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Click to expand...


Is anyone forcing you to be a lawyer?
Is anyone forcing to take the bar?
Is anyone forcing to take the class?

It is pretty simple, if you don't want to spend the money don't take the class. Is it possible to pass the bar without taking a class? Yes, but probably quite a bit harder for most people.

In the business world, people pay consultants a lot of money for sometimes very little work on their part or just simple a passing on of very little knowledge yet very critical to the business. I've seen consultants save companies $13 million and all he did was tell them all the pitfalls which took about a day, and he charged them $2 million. If you have to pay $2300 for knowledge on how to pass the bar from someone who knows how to it is well worth it because you could pass it on your own, but the time it would take you to gain the same knowledge probably isn't worth it. What I am getting at is knowledge + less time to accomplish goal is quite expensive, welcome to reality.
 
Several years ago I was working retail at Borders and there was a young woman who was hired to work alongside us -- her plan was to earn money while she was preparing for her bar exam. She'd finished law school and just had the bar exam to go. She'd already flunked it once. After only a month or two of employment at the store, in a rather unfortunate incident she was discovered to have been (allegedly, with the perception thereof) playing a little "footsie" with her discount privileges and was subsequently fired. I always wondered about (1) whether she ever managed to pass the bar exam and (2) her ethics in practicing law if she ever even got to that point....
 
CanadaRAM said:
You don't ask what goes into sausages and you don't ask what your lawyer may have done to get where they are... :D
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Well it depends, I think smart people who have gotten lawyers for business reason usually ask their experience in the field with a particular type of business, where they graduated from, and how many years experience do they have. Most lawyers, I have talked to are happy to spout their resumes. Although, criminal offenses, I haven't actually asked that one before.
 
Speaking as one who has completed the course offered by BarBri and took the Virginia Bar exam this week, I'll start by saying it is worth the money to take the course. I would also pay extra for the PMBR course if you are in an MBE state (most of us are). That said, I'd also recommend digging a bit deeper in your studies. The Virginia bar exam covered some pretty obscure areas of the law this time around that were not really covered in the lectures or the mini outlines BarBri provides. In other words, the bar examiners are aware of what BarBri says we will be tested on and they are attempting to stick it to us all. The same goes for PMBR but even more so.

Spend the money! It's a small investment for your future. Also, it probably sounded crazy when you first heard it, but dedicate up to ten hours a day for two to three months if you can. You don't want to retake it after all that effort. It's one of few doctorate degrees you can't use for its purpose until you pass a test.

Also, consider the alternatives. The Study Group is decent and there are other study at home courses you can look into if BarBri is not your cup of tea. As for PMBR, there is no substitute. My raw score increased significantly after completing all the assignments. It's a small price to pay.
 
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