Talk me into an Apple Silicon Mac

[RandomConstant]

Greetings everyone!

I've been a Mac user (on and off) since 1995. I've suffered and also triumphed through Apple's cycles of craziness and sanity throughout the years so while I appreciate Macs and macOS, I'm definitely not a hardcore fanboy.

My most recent Mac was a 2013 Mac Pro. I bought it in 2022 from OWC and had nothing but problems with it (it all started a week after the return period, of course). I sent it back for repair, only for it to act up again. After trying to use it as my daily driver, it has been completely disassembled because it will help me more by selling parts than trying to use it. Apparently there was an issue with my particular model, even directly from Apple, but since it was a 2013 model, Apple dropped support for it some time ago and aren't fixing things that old.

Since that time, I've mostly been using Linux with PCs at this point because adequately spec'd Apple Silicon Macs are very expensive and Linux actually just works (typically). I've been considering saving for an Apple Silicon Mac, but have some serious reservations:

• How will I run Windows 10 / 11 x86-64 virtual machines without paying for some expensive hypervisor (Parallels, VMWare, etc). I don't think the free VirtualBox can run x86-64 VMs on Apple Silicon Macs. Vbox also is flaky and their support community is relatively hostile.
• How long can I realistically depend on a more recent Apple Silicon Mac to be supported by Apple? I know there's no exact number, just looking for an educated guess.
• The Mini and similar form factors don't seem to be upgradable when it comes to memory and storage.
• I do software development, run a remote support business and also depend on non-Apple Store apps (including my own open-source software). From what I've read, un-signed apps won't run on the latest macOS anymore. I like choice and don't like the computer (or Apple) telling me what software I can and cannot run. Is there any (non-hacky / SIP-disabling way) of getting around this?
• I'm not made of money, so whichever Mac I purchase would have to be it for the long haul.

I really did like using macOS, when the Mac worked, and miss the built-in features and nice touches Apple put into it, but don't want to get burned again by iffy hardware and Apple pulling antagonistic stunts. Can you all give me any good reasons to come back?

Thanks in advance!

 

[MRMSFC]

Hi, I have been very satisfied with my M1 Max MacBook Pro and I think I can answer a few of your questions.

1. I have had a lot of luck with an app called UTM for running virtual machines. A caveat though, I doubt it has the performance for a heavy user, but in my limited experience it has been working well for running Windows XP, 7, and MacOS 9.

2. The best educated guess for official support is 7 years, which seems standard for most Apple products.

3. MacOS still has the ability to run unsigned apps. The reports that MacOS no longer allowed it was due to a bug (I’m watching carefully as well!) Though MacOS requires you to go through some stupid dialogue boxes and into settings to install unsigned apps, it is still possible.

Like we it is possible to disable SIP entirely: https://developer.apple.com/documen...ling-and-enabling-system-integrity-protection

4. It really depends on your definition of “long haul”. If you’re expecting full support and security updates for 10 years, then I believe that is well within the ability of Apple Silicon Macs.

Extending the life of the device beyond that is really based on the interest of the open source community, and whether they see it’s worth their time to keep Linux compatible with Apple Silicon.

Personally, I am very happy with my purchase. However my needs are much different than yours and if you feel some concern, maybe you could abuse the return window a little if you’re not satisfied.

 

[mr_roboto]

How will I run Windows 10 / 11 x86-64 virtual machines without paying for some expensive hypervisor (Parallels, VMWare, etc). I don't think the free VirtualBox can run x86-64 VMs on Apple Silicon Macs. Vbox also is flaky and their support community is relatively hostile.

Besides the free open source options like UTM, VMWare Pro is now free for personal use. It's a bit difficult to download, since Broadcom bought VMWare and hid VMWare support behind the insane and impenetrable Broadcom support website, but a VMWare employee has posted a helpful guide:

Downloading VMware Fusion and Workstation Free for Personal Use

How to download VMware Fusion in 2024

www.mikeroysoft.com

It cannot run x86-64 virtual machines, but do you actually need one? Odds are good that your needs can be met by Arm Windows and Arm Linux, with support for x86-64 binaries provided by Microsoft's or Linux's equivalent of Rosetta. This option is much higher performance than emulating an entire x86 PC, which is what's required to run an entire x86-64 operating system.

Speaking of which, Apple ships a version of Rosetta with macOS that can be used inside some Arm Linux VMs, such as UTM.

• The Mini and similar form factors don't seem to be upgradable when it comes to memory and storage.

There is now a source for M4 Mini SSD upgrades, but yes, you must buy enough RAM up front and it will be expensive.

 

[Apple_Robert]

If you have to be talked into purchasing something like a computer when you are versed in Apple, you don’t need to make a new Mac purchase.

 

[mcnallym]

Going to add the comments that I really don’t think Apple Mac is going to meet your requirements on its own.
From the looks of it better sticking with Wintel/Linux Boxes.
I run a Mac for my daily needs but run a Windows PC for gaming.

As with everything then buy the right tools for the right job, don’t try and shoehorn a product into trying to do something that not intended for.

Get a system to run the VM and then maybe a reasonable Mac for the Mac needs rather then trying to buy one system that does everything.

Buying a Mac Pro 2013 even in 2022 was pointless. Already basically dropped at that point, and I wouldn’t suggest a Mac Pro 2019 today to anyone. Bite the bullet and just accept that need to go Windows or Linux for your needs.

 

[RandomConstant]

Thanks to the folks who gave helpful replies -- I appreciate it! As for the others, I hope you can find happiness in your life!

Thanks again!

 

[benwiggy]

1. Windows on ARM is increasingly a thing, and that's certainly possible on AS Macs.

2. We can hope that there will be longer support, now that Apple is in control of more of the hardware. Over the last 25 years, I've usually upgraded because of compelling new features in a new Mac, rather than end-of-life of the old.

3. Yes: RAM and internal storage are baked in, so get what you need up-front. I've never got rid of a Mac because its max RAM was insufficient, so "future-proofing" is overplayed.

4. You can still open un-signed apps. If a 'ban' on un-signed apps does happen, then, you'll just have to sign the app yourself.

5. Macs do hold their value well on the secondhand market. The price is justified somewhat by the quality: while there have been some dogs (including the trashcan Pro, and laptops c. 2016 to 2019), the Apple Silicon range is pretty solid.

 

[Alameda]

Greetings everyone!

I've been a Mac user (on and off) since 1995. I've suffered and also triumphed through Apple's cycles of craziness and sanity throughout the years so while I appreciate Macs and macOS, I'm definitely not a hardcore fanboy.

My most recent Mac was a 2013 Mac Pro. I bought it in 2022 from OWC and had nothing but problems with it (it all started a week after the return period, of course). I sent it back for repair, only for it to act up again. After trying to use it as my daily driver, it has been completely disassembled because it will help me more by selling parts than trying to use it. Apparently there was an issue with my particular model, even directly from Apple, but since it was a 2013 model, Apple dropped support for it some time ago and aren't fixing things that old.

Since that time, I've mostly been using Linux with PCs at this point because adequately spec'd Apple Silicon Macs are very expensive and Linux actually just works (typically). I've been considering saving for an Apple Silicon Mac, but have some serious reservations:

• How will I run Windows 10 / 11 x86-64 virtual machines without paying for some expensive hypervisor (Parallels, VMWare, etc). I don't think the free VirtualBox can run x86-64 VMs on Apple Silicon Macs. Vbox also is flaky and their support community is relatively hostile.
• How long can I realistically depend on a more recent Apple Silicon Mac to be supported by Apple? I know there's no exact number, just looking for an educated guess.
• The Mini and similar form factors don't seem to be upgradable when it comes to memory and storage.
• I do software development, run a remote support business and also depend on non-Apple Store apps (including my own open-source software). From what I've read, un-signed apps won't run on the latest macOS anymore. I like choice and don't like the computer (or Apple) telling me what software I can and cannot run. Is there any (non-hacky / SIP-disabling way) of getting around this?
• I'm not made of money, so whichever Mac I purchase would have to be it for the long haul.

I really did like using macOS, when the Mac worked, and miss the built-in features and nice touches Apple put into it, but don't want to get burned again by iffy hardware and Apple pulling antagonistic stunts. Can you all give me any good reasons to come back?

Thanks in advance!

What kind of business are you running when the equipment for your business needs to last so long?

Mechanics need to buy tools. Uber drivers need to have a car. Software developers need computers.

This isn’t a lot of money at all. Honestly, if $1,500 every three years is too much capital expenditure for your business, while Uber drivers have $25,000 in capital expenditure over that time, you’re not doing well at your business.

You say you already have a Linux box, so just run Windows on it and save yourself all the trouble of emulating Windows on Mac. I’ve used emulators and they need more memory and storage and if you already have a PC box, just use it.

Then just buy the base M4 Mini and use the monitor keyboard and mouse you already have. If $600 is too expensive, you need to reexamine your business.

 

[RandomConstant]

If $600 is too expensive, you need to reexamine your business.

I understand your point, but know that I have less than a handful of customers and I'm semi-retired. To be honest, I tried closing the business some time back but couldn't leave my customers hanging. My profits are very slim so I don't have wads of cash to throw around.

I think folks have taken the spirit of my initial post the wrong way. Sorry -- autism.

Thanks again to everyone who gave helpful answers!

 

[mcnallym]

I understand your point, but know that I have less than a handful of customers and I'm semi-retired. To be honest, I tried closing the business some time back but couldn't leave my customers hanging. My profits are very slim so I don't have wads of cash to throw around.

I think folks have taken the spirit of my initial post the wrong way. Sorry -- autism.

Thanks again to everyone who gave helpful answers!

You probably would have been better off including that information in the beginning as is important information. People haven’t taken the spirit of your post the wrong way. You left out what we would consider important information.

However with this extra information then I would definitely say Mac is not the way forward for you.

At the moment you are already semi-retired and already tried to close the business once and this is a business with slim margin.

My advice would be to say to the customers that you are going to fully retire, give them 12 months, 18 months, notice or as long as you believe that the current hardware you have will allow you to operate without having to invest in additional hardware. From the information that providing then the business income is not going to cover the additional investment you would need and you would be subsiding their business.

Seriously you won’t be leaving them hanging, you give them notice that is happening and if they cannot find an alternative in that time frame then it isn’t that they cannot find software developer or remote support, but that they cannot find someone as cheap. You have already “gone the extra mile” for them keeping the business open when had looked to close and retire.

If semi retired and already looked at closing the business once then you clearly not going to be looking to grow the business and it does sound as though the business at the moment is basically covering costs as opposed to making money, and for what you are saying would need to grow the business, take on more customers to cover the investment would need to make.

$600 over 36 month or 3 years is 16.66 dollars a month.
$1500 dollars over 36 months or 3 year is 41.66 dollars a month

If the profit is that slim that the above is not doable then it really isn’t sustainable and would need to grow the business so that can cover the investment you need to make. If semi retired do you want to be looking at chasing new businesses more customers.

Retire and enjoy the fruits of your work.

 

[kschendel]

From what I've read so far, my guess is that unless you have a need for a portable laptop that either doesn't need to run x86 software, or are willing to dig into the UTM / VMware Pro / rosetta offerings, you're probably best off sticking to linux or winders at this point.

I do linux software development on my main desktop, and all my office-y stuff on an M2 Macbook Air. That happens to work for me, and the setup came about partly for inertia and historical reasons (as in, that's the way I've always done it!). It may not work for you, especially if you are winding things down. I haven't reached that point quite yet.