The ONLY problem with Macs are price SSD/RAM

[SebCohen]

That’s the Tweet. In all other aspects the OS and the HW are near perfection.

But the price increase of bumping storage or memory is ludacris and insane. (And shows rather poor sourcing abilities….)

 

[smirking]

What exactly is the point here? Just buy something else then. It seems pretty clear to me that their pricing strategy is to keep the base models more attainable (but still premium) and offset it by charging people who can and will pay more on the higher spec'd machines. Before Steve Jobs returned to Apple, their base models were eye watering in their pricing.

You love the OS, but OSes are not cheap to build and maintain. MacOS may be "free" but you're actually paying for it when you buy the hardware. Those upgrades used to be charged separately every 2 years or so to the tune of $129US.

Yeah, Apple makes tons of money and could afford to be more generous, but they're not going to do that until people aren't willing to pay for the product at the asking price so if you're serious about what you're saying, stop giving them money.

 

[torana355]

Absolutely agree Apples prices for Ram and SSD storage are borderline criminal. However if people are willing to pay it they will keep doing it.

 

[smirking]

Absolutely agree Apples prices for Ram and SSD storage are borderline criminal. However if people are willing to pay it they will keep doing it.

I should have added above that the storage price makes me wince too, but what makes me wince the most is that it's not just a one time cost.

In Apple's favor, they're high endurance enterprise grade SSDs and shouldn't be compared to the lowest priced sticks you can find on Amazon. On the other hand, I'm not powering a high traffic server nor do I intend to keep my computer for 20 years. A good consumer grade SSD at lower cost would be a perfectly good tradeoff for me.

I still have uses for my 1 and 2TB HDDs that I bought over a decade ago. I may dislike how much I have to pay for storage, but I'm more offended by that I can't pull the drive to keep using it when my current laptop is relegated to being a loaner device.

Now that TB5 is released, I'm considering ways to adopt external storage in ways that won't interfere with my workflow. I'm not planning on upgrading for a while. I'm going to be eagerly watching what solutions other people come up with.

 

[sunny5]

That’s the Tweet. In all other aspects the OS and the HW are near perfection.

But the price increase of bumping storage or memory is ludacris and insane. (And shows rather poor sourcing abilities….)

I totally agree. If they give up on over pricing SSD and RAM upgrade, they can have more users than before. Currently that's the only issue along with GPU performance.

 

[adamjackson]

Always has been.

I’ve been ordering higher-spec Macs since the year 2000 and RAM + Disk have always been the hardest part. It was way less hard back in the day when all you had to do is option the higher megahertz G3/G4/G5 and then buy your AirPort Card, RAM and HDDs from the internet.

Now that it’s all integrated, you have to pay Apple’s prices or switch to windows. They’re making their healthiest margins on the top tier machines But unless you really truly need tons of RAM, it’s skippable. I have an M1 Max with 64GB of RAM and I rarely tough 40GB so I’ll be ordering a machine with 48GB this time around. I learned my lesson. On the flip side, I use 1TB of SSD every day of the week but when I take longer trips, I surpass 2TB in media and have to start offloading to an external SSD so I’ll probably option a 4TB drive this time to give myself a higher ceiling.

 

[M4pro]

I feel bad for Mac Mini stans.

Apple prices the new 14 core / 20 GPU M4 Pro model with 24 GB RAM and 1TB SSD as a $1000 upgrade over the M4 Mini with 16 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD.

But us MacBook Pro buyers pay $200 less for the same spec upgrade.

Ick…

 

[altaic]

I feel bad for Mac Mini stans.

Apple prices the new 14 core / 20 GPU M4 Pro model with 24 GB RAM and 1TB SSD as a $1000 upgrade over the M4 Mini with 16 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD.

But us MacBook Pro buyers pay $200 less for the same spec upgrade.

Ick…

Huh?

Mac mini M4 Pro 14/20 24GB 1TB =$1800
14” MBP M4 Pro 14/20 24GB 1TB =$2400

Mac mini M4 Pro 14/20 48GB 1TB =$2200
14” MBP M4 Pro 14/20 48GB 1TB =$2800

 

[hoodlum90]

I feel bad for Mac Mini stans.

Apple prices the new 14 core / 20 GPU M4 Pro model with 24 GB RAM and 1TB SSD as a $1000 upgrade over the M4 Mini with 16 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD.

But us MacBook Pro buyers pay $200 less for the same spec upgrade.

Ick…

I saw the same thing hear in Canada. I don't think the issue is with the Mac Mini Pro price, but rather Apple has been pricing the base Mac Mini as a loss leader, so the gap to the Pro becomes larger.

Also, in Canada you can buy two base Mac Mini for less that than the price of one base Mac Mini with double the memory/SSD. That is how out of whack it can look.

 

[M4pro]

I saw the same thing hear in Canada. I don't think the issue is with the Mac Mini Pro price, but rather Apple has been pricing the base Mac Mini as a loss leader, so the gap to the Pro becomes larger.

Also, in Canada you can buy two base Mac Mini for less that than the price of one base Mac Mini with double the memory/SSD. That is how out of whack it can look.

View attachment 2446465

Ooooh… you’re right - that’s what is going on.

Makes sense mathematically, just feels a little off-putting until one thinks it through.

 

[hoodlum90]

Huh?

Mac mini M4 Pro 14/20 24GB 1TB =$1800
14” MBP M4 Pro 14/20 24GB 1TB =$2400

Mac mini M4 Pro 14/20 48GB 1TB =$2200
14” MBP M4 Pro 14/20 48GB 1TB =$2800

He was referring to the gap between the base M4 and Pro M4. That gap is larger with the Mini than with the MacBook Pro.

 

[altaic]

He was referring to the gap between the base M4 and Pro M4. That gap is larger with the Mini than with the MacBook Pro.

Okay, that just means that the Mac mini gets even larger discounts at the lower end:

Mac mini M4 10/10 24GB 1TB =$1200
14” MBP M4 10/10 24GB 1TB =$2000

But he feels "bad for Mac Mini stans" 🫠

 

[OldMacs4Me]

Been looking to replace the old 2011 MBP. A refurbished MB Air M1 should be perfect, however 8GB/256Gb is almost a total deal killer. 256 by the time you give it 1/3rd free space is really a 170GB drive. 8GB should be fine if you can still disable Stoplight, disable TM and tell Apple where to shove their new AI features. But then we come down to ports. My needs are simple; Charger, ethernet, monitor and a mouse, plus an occasional external SSD. So I am not just looking at the MB Air but also some sort of hub and power supply.

That for a computer that will be used almost entirely for internet access.

Also have to consider that if RAM or drive fail the device is essentially toast.

 

[cassmr]

Been looking to replace the old 2011 MBP. A refurbished MB Air M1 should be perfect, however 8GB/256Gb is almost a total deal killer. 256 by the time you give it 1/3rd free space is really a 170GB drive. 8GB should be fine if you can still disable Stoplight, disable TM and tell Apple where to shove their new AI features. But then we come down to ports. My needs are simple; Charger, ethernet, monitor and a mouse, plus an occasional external SSD. So I am not just looking at the MB Air but also some sort of hub and power supply.

That for a computer that will be used almost entirely for internet access.

Also have to consider that if RAM or drive fail the device is essentially toast.

At the end of the day part of their performance improvements and battery life comes from the unified memory and storage. They arent going back. Ram and SSD failure outside the warranty period is a pretty low risk, at least in any reasonable time frame.


Also in terms of devices, surely on a macbook air you would be looking for:

- wireless, not ethernet for most use;
- wireless mouse

Then you just have monitor, charger , and ssd, all of which can be connected at same time if you have a monitor that provides power delivery. If you upgrade to m2 MBA then you get magsafe, and you can avoid that issue.

You'll likely be able to get a fairly cheap usb-c hub that's unpowered that provides usb-a ports for external mouse and keyboard (if you want it wired), integrated Ethernet, and space to connect and external drive.

It doesnt sound like you'd be very mobile. Surely a base m4 mac mini is a better fit for your needs.

 

[TurboJobo]

Ram is fine, if you need more than the base you are a pro which makes this a tool for your job and you can afford it, SSD is expensive but just buy an external SSD and done. I been using my external 1tb ssd for almost everything and dont save anything on the mac.

 

[OldMacs4Me]

Also in terms of devices, surely on a macbook air you would be looking for:

- wireless, not ethernet for most use;
- wireless mouse

What Apple thinks my needs should be and what I choose to do obviously do not coincide. There are good reasons I chose to make ethernet available throughout my home and avoid wireless connections and devices when at home.

It doesnt sound like you'd be very mobile. Surely a base m4 mac mini is a better fit for your needs.

Were it not for the occasional roadtrip where mobility is needed you would be 100% correct. In that case only the laptop and mouse and charger would make the trip and the ports would be sufficient.

If I do go desktop I would go ahead and spring for the Studio version, and hope that the old 2011 MBP can continue to view embedded videos, even though FireFox says that will be ending in a few months. Much of my wifes use revolves around various embedded videos. That is what got me looking into someting more up to date. That said my ancient MacPro 4,1 is still more than potent enough to handle all the tasks which require a desktop computer, which makes the MBP the logical computer to replace.

 

[OldMacs4Me]

Ram is fine, if you need more than the base you are a pro which makes this a tool for your job and you can afford it, SSD is expensive but just buy an external SSD and done. I been using my external 1tb ssd for almost everything and dont save anything on the mac.

I wish I had your faith in the combined super chips. Having had a couple of recent SSD fails I am a bit leery of that side of the equation. Especially as those were fairly lightly used. Have not had any RAM fails in the past 15 years so I have more faith in that area.

 

[sunny5]

Honestly, at least they need to make SSD upgradable and repairable.

 

[Gnattu]

Socketed or not does not matter though. The Mac Pro and the Mac Studio has socketed SSDs and it does not prevent Apple selling the 8TB SSD kit at $4000. The NAND flash used in Apple systems are all customized SSDs that made for Apple devices anyway which means the quantity will always be limited, and ultimately, limited by how much order Apple placed. We can get significantly cheaper NAND than Apple pricing for sure, but the availability will not be as ideal as many would think.

 

[Gnattu]

About the RAM: swallow it, that is part of the reason why Apple Silicon can have huge memory bandwidth in a 14 inch laptop. Intel tried with Lunar Lake, OEMs complained, and they gave up. AMD will also come up with similar design with Strix Point Halo soon and let's see if they can produce a 2nd gen. Yes Apple pricing is ridiculous but the design choice here is for good reason, so upgradable RAM will come with performance and efficiency costs.

 

[altaic]

Socketed or not does not matter though. The Mac Pro and the Mac Studio has socketed SSDs and it does not prevent Apple selling the 8TB SSD kit at $4000. The NAND flash used in Apple systems are all customized SSDs that made for Apple devices anyway which means the quantity will always be limited, and ultimately, limited by how much order Apple placed. We can get significantly cheaper NAND than Apple pricing for sure, but the availability will not be as ideal as many would think.

Apple uses high durability NAND that’s usually reserved for enterprise/datacenter devices. So, there are extra factors in play for pricing.

 

[Gnattu]

Apple uses high durability NAND that’s usually reserved for enterprise/datacenter devices. So, there are extra factors in play for pricing.

It is still way too ridiculous though. From the Mac Mini pricing, you can get two base model with the price doubling storage and RAM. It almost looks like the M4 is gifted to you and Apple is selling you RAM and SSDs

 

[splitpea]

For me it’s the way they’re forcing you to upgrade the CPU to get more RAM.

For some reason you can get 64GB with the M4 Pro in the mini — but if you want 64GB in the MBP you have to get not just the M4 Max but the unbinned M4 Max.

 

[cassmr]

It is still way too ridiculous though. From the Mac Mini pricing, you can get two base model with the price doubling storage and RAM. It almost looks like the M4 is gifted to you and Apple is selling you RAM and SSDs

About 15 years ago when I used to sell macs in a third party store. I proposed to management that we run a promotion where we give the mac pro for free if you buy the max ram. Even selling our third party max ram at a 30% or so discount on Apple pricing would have left room to cover the mac pro cost and a healthy margin. Basically Apple has done this for a long time, its just become harder to avoid.

There was also a good 5 year period around 2006, when it was cheaper to fly return to the US from Australia and buy the full adobe creative suite that it was to buy it off the shelf in Australian pricing.

Ultimately, it's their job to make money. They are constrained by competition and market demand. I dont think there is a good argument that there is no competition for apple laptops, there is tons. You can equally look at some of the workstation level GPUs Nvidia sells and complain about their pricing. The adoption of cuda standard has kinda made them monopoly in some spaces.

Ultimately, the question is not whether upgrading to 1/2/4/8tb or 24/32/48/64/128gb of ram is a good deal, or reasonable price. It's whether the overall machine is good value compared to the alternative. Obviously given Apple's pricing for most users, there will be a sweet spot at about 1-2tb where the price increase is just not worth it any more, and you deal with it externally. Few users will need to go above 1 upgrade on ram. You as a consumer should be comparing the price of the configuration you want (or can live with if say you want 8 tb of storage but can live with 4) against what you could get in a competing computer where you might get that 8tb much cheaper, but have drawbacks in other areas (power efficiency, os, build quality, screen, whatever). Or not, in which case send Apple a message by buying that instead.

 

[cassmr]

For me it’s the way they’re forcing you to upgrade the CPU to get more RAM.

For some reason you can get 64GB with the M4 Pro in the mini — but if you want 64GB in the MBP you have to get not just the M4 Max but the unbinned M4 Max.

I think there must be something interesting about the m3 max design, its so weird the binned version can only come with 36gb.

Ultimatley, I know people are reacting like Apple took the 64 gb m4 Pro option away from the macbook pro, but I really think it was the reverse they gave it to the mini probably as a stop gap for people because the studios and mac pro havent been updated and wont for a while yet.

I know lots of people think they fall into the category where they need 64gb of ram but some how this workload that requires this doesnt need the extra compute and memory bandwidth of the pro, but I personally think the use case for that is likely so incredibly niche and its mostly sought by people who have RAM fomo. Likely, the only reason they dont offer is it to try and limit the variations and keep an even step ladder of upgrades going between models.