Those with 2020 M1 Mac Minis...

[Luposian]

Is anyone noticing a speed loss with the later versions of macOS? I'm on Monterey 12.7 and have no need/desire to upgrade unless there is a significant performance increase or software necessity. I'm of the mindset that Apple will make older hardware slowly run slower with successive macOS upgrades, insuring the "need" to buy new hardware. That may seem conspiratorial, but... I also believe it's impossible to downgrade to an older version of macOS, once you've updated. Being that macOS is becoming more and more iOS-like and that's the way Apple does things for iOS devices, stands to reason macOS would suffer a similar one-way road...

 

[theorist9]

Is anyone noticing a speed loss with the later versions of macOS? I'm on Monterey 12.7 and have no need/desire to upgrade unless there is a significant performance increase or software necessity. I'm of the mindset that Apple will make older hardware slowly run slower with successive macOS upgrades, insuring the "need" to buy new hardware. That may seem conspiratorial, but... I also believe it's impossible to downgrade to an older version of macOS, once you've updated. Being that macOS is becoming more and more iOS-like and that's the way Apple does things for iOS devices, stands to reason macOS would suffer a similar one-way road...

It is possible to downgrade your M1 from Sonoma to Monterey. But it's a PITA. Here's the procedure: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-silicon.2420265/?post=32972521#post-32972521

Alternately, if you have the space, you could test out Sonoma while keeping Monterey. To do that, create a completely separate partition (what Apple calls a "Container"), and install Sonoma on that. You'd probably only need ≈60 GB to install Sonoma and your most important apps. Then if you don't like it, you could delete the partition and continue to use Monterey.

Just make sure you have a full backup before creating a new Container--which you should have anyways.

I'd recommend creating a separate Container, rather than doing Apple's default, which is to create a new Volume on your existing Container. Having Sonoma on a separate Container ensures more isolation between Sonoma and Monterey.

Just two possible downsides:

1) If your work requires all your disks be encrypted, note that when the system creates an additional Container it will also create a separate small unencrypted, and unencryptable, partitition (don't know its purpose, but maybe its required to manage multiple OS's) that will cause your computer to fail the security check.

2) It's possible that installing Sonoma might create irreversible changes to your firmware. I've no idea if that's the case--someone with more expertise than me might be able to answer.

 

[Luposian]

2) It's possible that installing Sonoma might create irreversible changes to your firmware. I've no idea if that's the case--someone with more expertise than me might be able to answer.

Given that one possibility, that kinda spooks me from upgrading to Sonoma. I'll wait for someone to give a more detailed response in that regard. I was forced to upgrade to Monterey from Big Sur, because a more recent version of Blender wouldn't work without a newer version of macOS. Wasn't happy about that, but... if ye gonna play in Apple's sandbox, ye gotta play by their rules! 😁

 

[mr_roboto]

Is anyone noticing a speed loss with the later versions of macOS? I'm on Monterey 12.7 and have no need/desire to upgrade unless there is a significant performance increase or software necessity. I'm of the mindset that Apple will make older hardware slowly run slower with successive macOS upgrades, insuring the "need" to buy new hardware. That may seem conspiratorial, but... I also believe it's impossible to downgrade to an older version of macOS, once you've updated. Being that macOS is becoming more and more iOS-like and that's the way Apple does things for iOS devices, stands to reason macOS would suffer a similar one-way road...

No, I am not noticing any speed loss on my M1 Mac running the latest Sonoma 14.4. If anything, it's better.

You are being overly paranoid about upgrading to newer macOS versions. It is Apple's explicit policy that, unlike iOS, it is possible to install old operating systems. Take a look at this document: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/startup-disk-security-policy-control-sec7d92dc49f/web

In the default "Full Security" mode, macOS on Apple Silicon follows the same policy as iOS - you can only boot an operating system that was known to be the latest available from Apple at install time.

However, on Macs, you have other options. You can downgrade to "Reduced Security" mode, which allows installation and booting of any OS ever signed by Apple.

There is also "Permissive Security", which allows you to install and boot operating systems not signed by Apple at all. This is how Asahi Linux boots on Apple Silicon Macs.

These security policies are configured per operating system; when you install multiple operating systems on the same computer you can mix and match security policies as you see fit. Your "Full Security" macOS can live next to a "Permissive Security" Linux installation.

You are also being way too conspiracy minded about Apple deliberately slowing down old hardware to sell you new. They don't do that anywhere, not even iOS.

 

[mr_roboto]

2) It's possible that installing Sonoma might create irreversible changes to your firmware. I've no idea if that's the case--someone with more expertise than me might be able to answer.

Apple Silicon firmware is different than what you're used to. Most AS firmware is "OS-paired" - it lives in a special Preboot APFS volume on your SSD, next to other boot resources, rather than being flashed to a firmware memory on the motherboard. Apple's scheme permits multiple firmware versions to exist on the same machine when two or more different OS versions are installed. In the boot sequence, firmware is loaded and started just before starting an OS, and the bootloader uses the firmware paired with that specific OS. That means if you have two OS installations, only one of which is up to date, only the up to date one will get up to date firmware; when you boot the old one it gets the firmware it shipped with.

The Preboot volume is mounted at /System/Volumes/Preboot and you can poke around in there to find the firmware images for the various subsystems in Apple Silicon. Look for file names like ANE.img4 (ANE = Apple Neural Engine).

 

[chrfr]

Alternately, if you have the space, you could test out Sonoma while keeping Monterey. To do that, create a completely separate partition (what Apple calls a "Container"), and install Sonoma on that. You'd probably only need ≈60 GB to install Sonoma and your most important apps. Then if you don't like it, you could delete the partition and continue to use Monterey.

Just make sure you have a full backup before creating a new Container--which you should have anyways.

I'd recommend creating a separate Container, rather than doing Apple's default, which is to create a new Volume on your existing Container. Having Sonoma on a separate Container ensures more isolation between Sonoma and Monterey.

It’s just not worth making a new partition. It doesn’t isolate the data any more effectively than making a new volume and it takes longer to add and remove while offering no actual benefit.

@Luposian With that said Sonoma works exceedingly well on any of the M1 Macs and there’s no reason not to upgrade if you don’t have a specific software limitation preventing that. M1 Macs on Sonoma don’t feel slow.

 

[FreakinEurekan]

My M1 minis (2 of them) run quite well on Sonoma. The suggestion to create a volume (not partition - that’d be a PITA and would not provide any benefits) for “testing” Sonoma is a good one; you can see for yourself & make an informed decision.

 

[theorist9]

It’s just not worth making a new partition. It doesn’t isolate the data any more effectively than making a new volume and it takes longer to add and remove while offering no actual benefit.

@Luposian With that said Sonoma works exceedingly well on any of the M1 Macs and there’s no reason not to upgrade if you don’t have a specific software limitation preventing that. M1 Macs on Sonoma don’t feel slow.

The suggestion to create a volume (not partition - that’d be a PITA and would not provide any benefits) for “testing” Sonoma is a good one; you can see for yourself & make an informed decision.

That's what I thought as well, so the first time I tried it I installed Sonoma on a new Volume, on the same Container as Monterey, and experienced issues with Monterey as a result. I wiped the disk, restored Monterey, and then installed Sonoma again onto a separate Volume on the same Container. Again, Monterey became buggy after I did this.

I found one other poster, on another forum, who experienced the same (though not necessarily with the same OS's--I don't recall the details), who resolved this by putting the 2nd OS on a separate Container instead of a separate Volume. So I tried that. After taking this approach, there were no issues with Monterey. Or, more precisely, no new issues beyond those that were ongoing prior to trying Sonoma.

Of course, the OP is using an entirely different computer and configuration from mine, and thus may not have the issues I did with two OS's in the same Container. And using a new Volume instead of a separate Container is much more convenient; plus you don't have to allocate a fixed amount of space. The OP can always try putting it on a new Volume to start and see if that works, and then redo on a separate Container if it doesn't, as I had to.

 

[MacCheetah3]

Is anyone noticing a speed loss with the later versions of macOS?

I am not.

 

[theorist9]

I am not.

Yeah, but your're a cheetah, so you're always fast.

 

[mr_jomo]

Is anyone noticing a speed loss with the later versions of macOS? I'm on Monterey 12.7 and have no need/desire to upgrade unless there is a significant performance increase or software necessity. I'm of the mindset that Apple will make older hardware slowly run slower with successive macOS upgrades, insuring the "need" to buy new hardware. That may seem conspiratorial, but... I also believe it's impossible to downgrade to an older version of macOS, once you've updated. Being that macOS is becoming more and more iOS-like and that's the way Apple does things for iOS devices, stands to reason macOS would suffer a similar one-way road...

0% downgrade in speed since November 2020 for me. That little machine still is still champ even as I throw more and more things at it and keep upgrading to the always current macOS.

 

[citivolus]

Mine is performing great under 14.4 with no noticeable slowness. In fact I deliberately bought the M1 mini over the M2 version because I felt the speed difference was not significant enough for my needs.

 

[FK9896]

Why not give an attempt on Sonoma and test it through your workflow? You can buy an external SSD, install Sonoma into the SSD, and boot the Mac through the SSD. In this case, you can have both Sonoma and Monterey simultaneously. You can always switch between two systems by changing the Startup Disk and restarting the machine. If you don't like Sonoma, you just need to erase the SSD and that's it.

 

[iAssimilated]

I have the same opinion as everyone else. The M1 mini I use at work runs great on 14.4.

 

[AlmightyKang]

My daughter has one. Says she can't tell the difference between that and her M2 Air!

 

[theorist9]

Apple Silicon firmware is different than what you're used to. Most AS firmware is "OS-paired" - it lives in a special Preboot APFS volume on your SSD, next to other boot resources, rather than being flashed to a firmware memory on the motherboard. Apple's scheme permits multiple firmware versions to exist on the same machine when two or more different OS versions are installed. In the boot sequence, firmware is loaded and started just before starting an OS, and the bootloader uses the firmware paired with that specific OS. That means if you have two OS installations, only one of which is up to date, only the up to date one will get up to date firmware; when you boot the old one it gets the firmware it shipped with.

The Preboot volume is mounted at /System/Volumes/Preboot and you can poke around in there to find the firmware images for the various subsystems in Apple Silicon. Look for file names like ANE.img4 (ANE = Apple Neural Engine).

Thanks, that makes sense.

Alternately, if you instead just upgraded the current OS on your AS Mac to a newer OS, and then decided to downgrade, the old firmware would be restored if you downgraded using Apple Configurator + DFU, but would not be if you downgraded using an external boot drive:

The DFU restore will revert the Mac’s firmware and software back to whatever version of macOS you’re reinstalling, while a USB drive won’t do that.

Not sure how it would work with a pre-T2 Intel Mac using Internet Recovery, like my 2019 iMac, for either upgrade procedure (install an upgrade on a second Container, or upgrade the current OS). At least for the second case, I'd gues the firmware would not be downgraded when you downgraded the OS. No idea about the first.

 

[oasantos1]

I don't have a M1 Mac mini, but I do have an M1 iMac.
Personally I have not noticed much difference in performance. Everything still opens instantly.

 

[EdwardC]

I have a M1 as well as M2 Pro Mini and I cannot tell much difference in them, both are 16GB.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Is anyone noticing a speed loss with the later versions of macOS? I'm on Monterey 12.7 and have no need/desire to upgrade unless there is a significant performance increase or software necessity. I'm of the mindset that Apple will make older hardware slowly run slower with successive macOS upgrades, insuring the "need" to buy new hardware. That may seem conspiratorial, but... I also believe it's impossible to downgrade to an older version of macOS, once you've updated. Being that macOS is becoming more and more iOS-like and that's the way Apple does things for iOS devices, stands to reason macOS would suffer a similar one-way road...

Don't move on from Monterey

I've purposely gone BACK to Monterey from Sonoma

macOS just keeps getting more bloated and more bug filled

 

[eRondeau]

Ordered my "base" M1 during the intro keynote. It was shockingly fast on Day #1 running Big Sur and continues to be shockingly faster under Sonoma. No sense of slowing down at all. Not trying to be pedantic but if you've got less than 5GB free on your SSD everything could slow down. Friends have asked me to look at their "broken" Mac's and their SSD/HDD is 99.9% full. Always aim to have at least 5GB free to be safe. I've also seen a damaged or missing Preference files bog everything down (the Mac sort-of gets obsessed with it) and spams the Console log a thousand times a second. So that's a couple of things to check anyway.

 

[CraigJDuffy]

Is anyone noticing a speed loss with the later versions of macOS? I'm on Monterey 12.7 and have no need/desire to upgrade unless there is a significant performance increase or software necessity. I'm of the mindset that Apple will make older hardware slowly run slower with successive macOS upgrades, insuring the "need" to buy new hardware. That may seem conspiratorial, but... I also believe it's impossible to downgrade to an older version of macOS, once you've updated. Being that macOS is becoming more and more iOS-like and that's the way Apple does things for iOS devices, stands to reason macOS would suffer a similar one-way road...

The whole “apple slows down devices with new OSes” thing has been disproven a million times. I’m running the latest macOS on my base model Mac mini and it’s running identically to how it did on day one- that is to say, fast and silent.

 

[theorist9]

Why not give an attempt on Sonoma and test it through your workflow? You can buy an external SSD, install Sonoma into the SSD, and boot the Mac through the SSD. In this case, you can have both Sonoma and Monterey simultaneously. You can always switch between two systems by changing the Startup Disk and restarting the machine. If you don't like Sonoma, you just need to erase the SSD and that's it.

That won't address his particular concern. He's not wondering if Sonoma will work for him, he's wondering if he'll get a decrease in performance. The only way to test that would be to boot Sonoma from the same drive as Monterey. If he boots to an external drive, and sees a decrease in performance, he won't know if that's because of Sonoma, or because he's booting from an external drive. Indeed, an external drive is likely to give lower performance than the AS internal drive.

That's why I suggested he installSonoma on a separate Container on his internal drive. That would enable a direct comparison.

 

[Luposian]

Ordered my "base" M1 during the intro keynote. It was shockingly fast on Day #1 running Big Sur and continues to be shockingly faster under Sonoma. No sense of slowing down at all. Not trying to be pedantic but if you've got less than 5GB free on your SSD everything could slow down. Friends have asked me to look at their "broken" Mac's and their SSD/HDD is 99.9% full. Always aim to have at least 5GB free to be safe. I've also seen a damaged or missing Preference files bog everything down (the Mac sort-of gets obsessed with it) and spams the Console log a thousand times a second. So that's a couple of things to check anyway.

I've noticed my M1 Mac Mini takes a lot longer to boot than it used to. I'm trying to figure out why. The SSD is not full, so I'm thinking it's something else. I ran Onyx (for Monterey) but that doesn't seem to have helped. Being I've been using an external SSD almost since day 1 (I'm hoping that will increase it's resale value when I upgrade, as the internal SSD is only hours old in actual use, since Dec. 2020 when I got it), I'm trying to figure out what would cause the external to now take significantly longer to boot than before (everything else seems just as fast as before). Wish there were a way to check SSD lifespan and such, but external (USB) SSD's seem to be excluded from that functionality, unless I'm missing something. It's a Western Digital silver (512Gb) USB-C SSD, no longer sold, to my knowledge, if that helps.

 

[theorist9]

I've noticed my M1 Mac Mini takes a lot longer to boot than it used to. I'm trying to figure out why. The SSD is not full, so I'm thinking it's something else. I ran Onyx (for Monterey) but that doesn't seem to have helped. Being I've been using an external SSD almost since day 1 (I'm hoping that will increase it's resale value when I upgrade, as the internal SSD is only hours old in actual use, since Dec. 2020 when I got it), I'm trying to figure out what would cause the external to now take significantly longer to boot than before (everything else seems just as fast as before). Wish there were a way to check SSD lifespan and such, but external (USB) SSD's seem to be excluded from that functionality, unless I'm missing something. It's a Western Digital silver (512Gb) USB-C SSD, no longer sold, to my knowledge, if that helps.

Since you're concerned about performance, why not make your internal your boot drive, put your apps there, and put any personal files that don't fit on the external? That shoud have significantly more effect on performance than switching from Monterey to Sonoma.

I very much doubt your resale would be significantly affected by the writes on the SSD, since even if you start using it as a boot drive now, it's probably still going to have so much life left when you sell it that no one will care. Plus most buyers don't even know to, or bother to, check that, especially those buying Mini's.

 

[Luposian]

he won't know if that's because of Sonoma, or because he's booting from an external drive. Indeed, an external drive is likely to give lower performance than the AS internal drive.

Actually, I can. You see, I've been using an external 512Gb WD USB-C SSD drive almost since day one, and I can confirm that the external (at least as far as Big Sur 11.1) booted exactly as fast as the internal drive. However, recently, I've noticed this same drive now takes a significant amount of time to boot Monterey 12.7. I don't recall this happening right after installing Monterey, so I'm thinking something else is going on (unless it happened at the last update, from 12.6 to 12.7?)... the drive isn't full by any means, so it can't be that. I've tried running Onyx for Monterey, and that hasn't helped. Kinda puzzling. Any ideas?