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Aragornii

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 25, 2010
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I recently installed a new NAS that I use for time machine backups for about 5 Macs. For one I regularly get this error, and have to start create a new backup.

Any ideas as to what might be causing this? It didn't start until I started using my NAS for backup, but I'm only having this problem with one of my Macs.
 
Verifying backups only applies to TM backups on network drives so that would explain the coincidental happening if you were previously using a hard drive directly connected to the Mac.

What are the differences, in usage and otherwise, between the problematic Mac and the others?
 
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Interesting - I didn't know that. I previously backed up to Time Capsules, but since I stopped using Apple Airports for WiFi I added a 12 TB NAS set up in a RAID 5 configuration.

Some. difference for this computer:
1. it's a laptop, so connects only via wifi (usually is plugged in and backs up in power nap mode).
2. it's set to encrypted backup
3. File Vault is turned on
4. it occasionally gets heavy hard drive usage when I move video files around, etc.

Some of my other computers also have these differences, but this is the only one they all apply to.
 
I would suspect wifi, what is the strength and reliability of wifi where the notebook resides? I had issues with backups over wifi before and they seem to be depending on all sorts of things, including wifi cards involved and even drivers. Previously, when searching for help on this subject, others strongly suggested to run backups over ethernet cable. Easier said than done.
 
If you hold the alt key and click the Time Machine icon by the clock, you can force the Verify Backups setting. This is a per Mac setting, so do it on the Mac with the problem.

If this doesn't fix the problem, then your backups might be corrupted and you will have to start a fresh backup. There are a few ways to try and solve this, but a fresh backup seems more reliable and quickest to do.

Wireless is always susceptible to interference, especially the 2.4 GHz spectrum, but storage devices are also susceptible to bit rot so while wired backups are better they are not perfect. Also, if your backup dies and you lose your files then it means that you did not really have a backup, you had extra storage. Use this moment to evaluate how well your files are stored.

Time Machine for me also gets corrupted occasionally, using my wireless Time Capsule, and aside from the verification none of the suggested fixes on the web ever worked for me so I always start fresh. It also feels like the newer macOS versions are getting worse. On Mojave I occasionally see that a backup has not been done in a while, even though the laptop has been sitting plugged in (usually it starts the backup within 5 minutes of being plugged in). Manually starting the backup completes normally and fixes the automatic backups for a while, so who knows what is going wrong. I also had to start fresh backups twice under Mojave so far due to unrecoverable errors in the backup, while earlier versions either had one fresh start overall or none.
 
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I have a hard time understanding how TM can backup hourly while a user is changing or moving files, particularly large files and databases (I have a recent post on this regarding Outlook).

It may be that such a user would be better off to have TM backup once a day (via something like Time Machine Editor) while no apps are running.
 
I have a hard time understanding how TM can backup hourly while a user is changing or moving files, particularly large files and databases
Time Machine essentially makes a list of the current files and uses that list to backup. So any new files created will be done next time around. Moving files seems to have no effect, for example keep a pdf open and move it to a new folder, it still stays open and you can make and save edits. On Windows you get a file in use warning. So moving a file during a backup shouldn’t matter.

I imagine editing files is the real problem, or more precisely if an app uses and edits multiple files and Time Machine doesn't backup the exact versions, just the versions it sees. And certain apps might not save edits to the disk but keep them in memory until you close the app, therefore causing even more problems. And so if you need multiple files of the correct version per app, but Time Machine only got the files at certain times then you might have a problem.

Since Time Machine insists on making full copies of files no matter the size (versus a more efficient copying of just the changes) editing a big file can make the file be even more out of sync. Now Time Machine does make backups to the local drive, so I image that this helps with copying an edited file, especially if there is some trickery where it delays writing to the file to help with backups and then frees the space later. But I also imagine that most people who don't have Time Machine problems don't talk about it so the result is that you hear about the problems only.

Time Machine doesn't choose the first backup of the day, the most recent is always chosen (otherwise what is the point of backing up every 60 minutes). The backups are trimmed in size once your backup capacity runs low, but they cull the oldest files first and I believe they also simplify backups where they only keep a single backup for every day older than a few days. In my case it keeps the last 20 hourly backups and then defaults to single days.

But since old files are really only for occasional reference they don't matter for the usual sort or recovery. It is also entirely possible that Time Machine was never designed for backing up extremely large files over a slow connection (doesn't make use of file deltas), so perhaps in your example they need to either look into a faster backup destination (SSD over USB 3 can be quite fast, on the order of hundreds of megabytes per second and the newest SSDs can reach gigabytes per second) or look into backup software for more demanding users, or both.

On Windows you have Volume Shadow Copy which facilitates making backups of files in use, so I imagine that Time Machine uses something similar. I have only had full on backup refusal problems but never incomplete restoration issues. Outlook may also be a special case, as the complaints about Outlook and large mailboxes are common. And a quick Google shows that Outlook likes to corrupt as you approach its mailbox file size limit. So this problem can be either in Outlook or Time Machine, but it can also be the extra fun kind where it is both and therefore hard to fix and impossible to find a solution online.
 
I have a hard time understanding how TM can backup hourly while a user is changing or moving files, particularly large files and databases (I have a recent post on this regarding Outlook).

It may be that such a user would be better off to have TM backup once a day (via something like Time Machine Editor) while no apps are running.

I agree.
But I still don't understand why Time Machine is always corrupting the backup database after a while.
Why can't they use a hash value to make sure the information has been transmitted completely and has written without errors to the backup container? Because the problem with wireless time machine backups is an old one.
 
I agree.
But I still don't understand why Time Machine is always corrupting the backup database after a while.
Why can't they use a hash value to make sure the information has been transmitted completely and has written without errors to the backup container? Because the problem with wireless time machine backups is an old one.

Time Machine is relatively old technology, same as hard drive system HFS which it is relying on. I would even say both are obsolete by now. When it was developed, no one was backing up over wifi and network in general. It would really be nice to get "TM2" by now. May be with future update to APFS? It may get smart enough and provide enough capabilities for "TM2"?
 
It's not surprising that since I've posted that I haven't had a corrupted backup so have not been able to test the approach of forcing verify backups. Good advice nonetheless.
 
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