To M4 Pro Or Not To M4 Pro

[landshark2]

In my current usage, my M1 Mini with just the 16 GB Ram upgrade still does the job. My single monitor is a 55" Visio smart TV, and I have an external Pioneer BDR-XS07S optical drive (hoping to someday play Blu-rays with a Mac). Internet surfing and home entertainment are all I'm currently doing, but I'd like to create videos with footage from my iPhone, and I'll probably upgrade from my current 14 Pro.

Anyway, the M4 Black Friday deals have warned up my wallet. At first I was dreaming of an M4 Pro MacBook Pro, since it's been a long time since I bought a new laptop, but my finances are better after New Years. My M1 Mini qualifies for a $230 Apple trade in, and using that on a refurbished M4 Pro MacBook Pro seems like a good New Years resolution.

For me, the future use of Thunderbolt 5 and HDMI 2.1 seem to be the only selling points for the M4 Pro Mini, over the base M4 Mini (other than 512 GB SSD and prestige). Now that I've seen the trade in program, it seems that I could trade in a base M4 Mini in a year or 2 when the base Mini has a 512 GB SSD, Thunderbolt 5 and HDMI 2.1.

And do I factor in future tariffs on imports, from China and elsewhere? Are the current relatively low prices also a reason to go M4 Pro now?

Please school me on the rights and wrongs of what I've typed above...

 

[waloshin]

M4 not the M4 pro not worth it for 90% of people.

I believe the M4 has HDMI 2.1 as well.

 

[TheRealAlex]

I needed the Extra Cores and 10Gig Ethernet I get 2.5Gig Fiber Optic to my home.

 

[landshark2]

Everymac does show the base M4 Mini as having 2.1 HDMI, so I am seriously leaning that way.

 

[GDF]

Tough decision. I had a similar question and not a lot of responses. I just don’t think there have been enough tests or real user reviews yet to show the actual differences in performance at least what I have seen.

 

[waloshin]

Tough decision. I had a similar question and not a lot of responses. I just don’t think there have been enough tests or real user reviews yet to show the actual differences in performance at least what I have seen.

In video editing the M4 Pro is substantially faster in export speed about 33-100% faster in software export using the cpu cores and gpu cores.

 

[spaceballl]

If you currently have an M1, it means that you upgrade fairly frequently. So just get the M4. It's a huge jump over the M1, and you'll probably upgrade to the M7 when it's out!

 

[RolexChan]

In my current usage, my M1 Mini with just the 16 GB Ram upgrade still does the job. My single monitor is a 55" Visio smart TV, and I have an external Pioneer BDR-XS07S optical drive (hoping to someday play Blu-rays with a Mac). Internet surfing and home entertainment are all I'm currently doing, but I'd like to create videos with footage from my iPhone, and I'll probably upgrade from my current 14 Pro.

Anyway, the M4 Black Friday deals have warned up my wallet. At first I was dreaming of an M4 Pro MacBook Pro, since it's been a long time since I bought a new laptop, but my finances are better after New Years. My M1 Mini qualifies for a $230 Apple trade in, and using that on a refurbished M4 Pro MacBook Pro seems like a good New Years resolution.

For me, the future use of Thunderbolt 5 and HDMI 2.1 seem to be the only selling points for the M4 Pro Mini, over the base M4 Mini (other than 512 GB SSD and prestige). Now that I've seen the trade in program, it seems that I could trade in a base M4 Mini in a year or 2 when the base Mini has a 512 GB SSD, Thunderbolt 5 and HDMI 2.1.

And do I factor in future tariffs on imports, from China and elsewhere? Are the current relatively low prices also a reason to go M4 Pro now?

Please school me on the rights and wrongs of what I've typed above...

When choosing memory, the key factor is whether you're considering it as "VRAM" in your decision-making. If you're like me, an AI professional planning to deploy AI projects on this machine, then the 64GB memory (which also acts as VRAM) is an absolute must. Similarly, opting for a 14-core CPU and a 20-core GPU is equally important. If you go with the 20-core GPU, you’ll need to pair it with the 14-core CPU, not the 12-core.

If you think Apple's memory is overpriced, just compare it to the cost of Nvidia's VRAM, and you’ll realize how reasonable Apple's memory (VRAM) actually is.

As for the SSD, I think there’s a good chance that third-party, replaceable SSD modules for the Mac mini M4 will hit the market in the near future. The 2024 Mac mini M4 is one of the hottest topics globally, and the entry-level model is expected to see a lot of buyers. However, its 256GB SSD is likely to be an upgrade target for many users. Considering that engineers in Shenzhen’s Huaqiangbei district are already working on circuit boards, molds, and product testing, it’s only a matter of time before replacement options become available.

 

[landshark2]

I did get the base M4 Mini, but missed the last $499 one at my local Costco by an hour or so on the Tuesday before Black Friday. So I waited until early Friday when Amazon dropped it to $529.

Sucks to have to wait weeks for it to arrive, but I'm have no buyers remorse.

 

[Populus]

I’m also debating between the M4 with 32GB or the M4 Pro with 24GB. I don’t know which one will lose value quicker on the second hand market.

Also if I want to play with local LLMs, more RAM (32GB) will be better, but having a 16 core GPU (vs 10 core GPU) and higher memory bandwidth on the 24GB M4 Pro is also important, so… I don’t know what to do honestly.

My Mac mini will be attached to a 4K monitor @ 120Hz, do you think the M4 Pro with 16 GPU cores will help to keep the macOS UI more smooth and snappy over the years?

 

[TheRealAlex]

In my current usage, my M1 Mini with just the 16 GB Ram upgrade still does the job. My single monitor is a 55" Visio smart TV, and I have an external Pioneer BDR-XS07S optical drive (hoping to someday play Blu-rays with a Mac). Internet surfing and home entertainment are all I'm currently doing, but I'd like to create videos with footage from my iPhone, and I'll probably upgrade from my current 14 Pro.

Anyway, the M4 Black Friday deals have warned up my wallet. At first I was dreaming of an M4 Pro MacBook Pro, since it's been a long time since I bought a new laptop, but my finances are better after New Years. My M1 Mini qualifies for a $230 Apple trade in, and using that on a refurbished M4 Pro MacBook Pro seems like a good New Years resolution.

For me, the future use of Thunderbolt 5 and HDMI 2.1 seem to be the only selling points for the M4 Pro Mini, over the base M4 Mini (other than 512 GB SSD and prestige). Now that I've seen the trade in program, it seems that I could trade in a base M4 Mini in a year or 2 when the base Mini has a 512 GB SSD, Thunderbolt 5 and HDMI 2.1.

And do I factor in future tariffs on imports, from China and elsewhere? Are the current relatively low prices also a reason to go M4 Pro now?

Please school me on the rights and wrongs of what I've typed above...

Considering the M4 Pro smokes AMDs and Intels highest end CPUs it’s a No brainer to go M4 Pro.

 

[richmlow]

I did get the base M4 Mini, but missed the last $499 one at my local Costco by an hour or so on the Tuesday before Black Friday. So I waited until early Friday when Amazon dropped it to $529.

Sucks to have to wait weeks for it to arrive, but I'm have no buyers remorse.

The base Mac mini M4 is an excellent machine! If I didn't have my Mac mini M2 Pro, I would get the M4.

richmlow

 

[TheRealAlex]

The base Mac mini M4 is an excellent machine! If I didn't have my Mac mini M2 Pro, I would get the M4.

richmlow

It only has 4 P Cores the M4 Pro has 8 P Cores. That's a must also 10 Gig Ethernet also

 

[bzgnyc2]

I’m also debating between the M4 with 32GB or the M4 Pro with 24GB. I don’t know which one will lose value quicker on the second hand market.

Also if I want to play with local LLMs, more RAM (32GB) will be better, but having a 16 core GPU (vs 10 core GPU) and higher memory bandwidth on the 24GB M4 Pro is also important, so… I don’t know what to do honestly.

My Mac mini will be attached to a 4K monitor @ 120Hz, do you think the M4 Pro with 16 GPU cores will help to keep the macOS UI more smooth and snappy over the years?

With all the options and unknowns the sanest thing might be to buy just what you need for the forseeable future and likely experimentation knowing that you will have to replace it with something bigger/faster/more expensive if you can serious about local LLM.

If you have a hard trade-off of Mini/M4 w/2 GB versus Mini/M4 Pro w/24 GB and running local LLM is important to you, it's a decision betwen speed versus maximum model size. Having 32 GB over 24 GB means the ability to run slightly larger models. The M4 Pro will run them substantially faster due to higher memory bandwidth (plus its extra P cores, etc).

The hard part is predicting whether there will be models that fit within 32 GB but not 24 GB. Normally I would say that's unlikely except in this case 32 GB is such a common size of system for this that I think 3rd parties will be targeting models to just fit within that.

The other hard part is how will these models evolve? Currently they make use of a lot of memory bandwidth. However as people work on the algorithms, will they find ways to reduce their sensitity to memory bandwidth? Or alternatively will they develop algorithms that run efficiently "out-of-core" (i.e. efficiently run without requiring all the weights stay in RAM)?

If it was me and I was serious about running local LLM, I would try to spring for the Mini/M4 Pro w/48GB. If not I would go with the Mini M4 w/32GB. Speed is good but nothing is slower than not being able to run the model at all (assuming non-local is not an option).

But let me confuse the situation further and note that an Mini/M2 Pro is faster at LLM than an Mini/M4 [base] and is available refurb w/32GB for almost the same price. Similarly, a Studio/M2 Max is even faster than a Mini/M4 Pro at LLM (and possibly some other things) and available refurb w/32GB for slightly less than an Mini/M4 Pro w/48GB.

As such with all the trade-offs and unknowns (including whether you will go heavy into LLM or focus on other things), avoid over-investing at this point. What's the minimum you need to do your "day job" and have enough headroom for learning and experimentation knowing that more money might be needed down the line based on what you learn in this round.

 

[Populus]

With all the options and unknowns the sanest thing might be to buy just what you need for the forseeable future and likely experimentation knowing that you will have to replace it with something bigger/faster/more expensive if you can serious about local LLM.

If you have a hard trade-off of Mini/M4 w/2 GB versus Mini/M4 Pro w/24 GB and running local LLM is important to you, it's a decision betwen speed versus maximum model size. Having 32 GB over 24 GB means the ability to run slightly larger models. The M4 Pro will run them substantially faster due to higher memory bandwidth (plus its extra P cores, etc).

The hard part is predicting whether there will be models that fit within 32 GB but not 24 GB. Normally I would say that's unlikely except in this case 32 GB is such a common size of system for this that I think 3rd parties will be targeting models to just fit within that.

The other hard part is how will these models evolve? Currently they make use of a lot of memory bandwidth. However as people work on the algorithms, will they find ways to reduce their sensitity to memory bandwidth? Or alternatively will they develop algorithms that run efficiently "out-of-core" (i.e. efficiently run without requiring all the weights stay in RAM)?

If it was me and I was serious about running local LLM, I would try to spring for the Mini/M4 Pro w/48GB. If not I would go with the Mini M4 w/32GB. Speed is good but nothing is slower than not being able to run the model at all (assuming non-local is not an option).

But let me confuse the situation further and note that an Mini/M2 Pro is faster at LLM than an Mini/M4 [base] and is available refurb w/32GB for almost the same price. Similarly, a Studio/M2 Max is even faster than a Mini/M4 Pro at LLM (and possibly some other things) and available refurb w/32GB for slightly less than an Mini/M4 Pro w/48GB.

As such with all the trade-offs and unknowns (including whether you will go heavy into LLM or focus on other things), avoid over-investing at this point. What's the minimum you need to do your "day job" and have enough headroom for learning and experimentation knowing that more money might be needed down the line based on what you learn in this round.

Thank you for your elaborated reply, especially on the concerning to how LLMs fit into the equation, the size vs speed dilemma.

Regarding your question, what’s the minimum I can spend right now? I want the new form factor, as I’ve been waiting years for this moment, so the M4 is the minimum I’ll get. The minimum I need for my apps and workflow, and not struggling with the specs on the next few years, is the M4 with 24GB of RAM. But I’m more than pleased to go with the 32GB model to better accommodate LLMs and, more importantly, to give macOS and apps more room to grow in memory usage in the foreseeable future.

So the 1TB M4 w/32GB seems a good balance. Although I guess I could use the 1TB M4 w/24GB without many problems on the next years…

But then, maybe I’ll install Whiskey and want to play with some mid range games that aren’t available on PS5. Yes, I’m going for a PS5 to play, but there are many indie games and projects, like weird horror games or walking simulators / puzzle games that are exclusively on PC.

In this case, the M4 Pro with 6 extra GPU cores would definitely help. However, I’m stuck with 24GB of RAM, as I’m not going to pay the pricey upgrade of almost 500€ for the 48GB. No way.

My limit is not the sky, it is the 1TB M4 Pro with 24GB of RAM. But I guess I should give the M4 with 32GB a try for the emulators and whisky ported indie games I may be interested in…

 

[bzgnyc2]

Thank you for your elaborated reply, especially on the concerning to how LLMs fit into the equation, the size vs speed dilemma.

Regarding your question, what’s the minimum I can spend right now? I want the new form factor, as I’ve been waiting years for this moment, so the M4 is the minimum I’ll get. The minimum I need for my apps and workflow, and not struggling with the specs on the next few years, is the M4 with 24GB of RAM. But I’m more than pleased to go with the 32GB model to better accommodate LLMs and, more importantly, to give macOS and apps more room to grow in memory usage in the foreseeable future.

So the 1TB M4 w/32GB seems a good balance. Although I guess I could use the 1TB M4 w/24GB without many problems on the next years…

But then, maybe I’ll install Whiskey and want to play with some mid range games that aren’t available on PS5. Yes, I’m going for a PS5 to play, but there are many indie games and projects, like weird horror games or walking simulators / puzzle games that are exclusively on PC.

In this case, the M4 Pro with 6 extra GPU cores would definitely help. However, I’m stuck with 24GB of RAM, as I’m not going to pay the pricey upgrade of almost 500€ for the 48GB. No way.

My limit is not the sky, it is the 1TB M4 Pro with 24GB of RAM. But I guess I should give the M4 with 32GB a try for the emulators and whisky ported indie games I may be interested in…

I can't advise on the gaming dimension of all this but my best recommendation focusing on the LLM and considering the above is the M4/32GB.

I did a little research into the memory requirements of LLM (as I will need to fry this fish in the future and just need to finish frying my other fish first to butcher a saying). There are more variables to fit pre-existing models within different memory limits than I previously understood but I still think 32 GB is going to give you the best options to run models within your budget. 32 GB should fully handle 7-8 B parameter Llama models without trouble. 24 GB could also handle such models but may require manual tweaking of things like GPU memory allocation or using reduced precision models (which may still generate good enough results for your purposes / this learning phase).

However, I also understand 30B+ is "where the magic happens" though there's now a trend to jump from 7 B to 70 B models as the 70 B models with 1/2 precision seem to work better than 30 B models. Running 70 B parameter models will be tough even in 32 GB but apparently some people have made it work by going to 3-bit quantization. It seems unlikely they can be squeezed further into 24 GB.

As such, the M4/32 will give you materially more flexibility for larger models even though the M4 Pro/24 would run smaller models faster. My opinion is that the former will be more valuable to you in this exploratory phase.

 

[philjo]

I am trying to decide between getting the M4 mini with 24GB Ram, 32GB ram or M4 pro with 24 GB Ram. The latter 2 options are the same price.
It would replace my 2011 Mini (quad core i7 with 8GB ram) so anything would be considerably faster.

My main query is how much RAM should I allow for if using Parallels and windows 11? The parallels document Says it requires 8GB RAm minimum.
I only need 2 window programs which are not themselves memory heavy. One currently runs using Crossover but some functionality is glitchy so I am considering using parallels instead on the new mini. I have a very old version of parallels that ran XP so I should be able to get upgrade pricing for parallels.

I will also be running Lightroom which tends to max out resources on my current mini when trying to do bulk photo exports or imports of Raw files from a memory card.

 

[Populus]

I am trying to decide between getting the M4 mini with 24GB Ram, 32GB ram or M4 pro with 24 GB Ram. The latter 2 options are the same price.
It would replace my 2011 Mini (quad core i7 with 8GB ram) so anything would be considerably faster.

My main query is how much RAM should I allow for if using Parallels and windows 11? The parallels document Says it requires 8GB RAm minimum.
I only need 2 window programs which are not themselves memory heavy. One currently runs using Crossover but some functionality is glitchy so I am considering using parallels instead on the new mini. I have a very old version of parallels that ran XP so I should be able to get upgrade pricing for parallels.

I will also be running Lightroom which tends to max out resources on my current mini when trying to do bulk photo exports or imports of Raw files from a memory card.

I’m on the same boat, I suspect many of us are between those 3 configurations.

If you’re going to use a virtual machine, while 24GB are enough for 2 games running in each crossover-whiskey bottle, with 32 you’ll be sure you don’t run out of RAM. But I haven’t, with the M4 Pro with 24GB. Although I’ve seen the yellow level pushing the machine doing at the same time tasks I wouldn’t in real life.

So if those crossover apps are games, I would opt for the 24GB config, ideally the M4 Pro for the GPU. But if you plan on installing Parallels and using RAM intensive apps on them, maybe the 32GB option is better…

Initially I just wanted 32GB of RAM. But now I’m less and less sure that I really need those 32GB, because the 24 on my current M4 Pro are more than enough with everything I’m doing. I haven’t tried local LLMs yet, tho.

 

[philjo]

Thanks. The 2 windows programs are genealogy software and I don’t think they are excessively memory hungry. One runs OK in crossover whilst the other tends to crash randomly when clicking on various menu items. I Will try on the latest crossover 24 when I migrate to the new mini as the highest I can currently run is 19. Though I think longer term would be easiest to use Parallels with win 11.
So I may opt for M4 with 32GB ram.

 

[Ifti]

I was contemplating a M4 Pro, but I also wanted to increase the SSD to 1TB and the RAM to 64GB so it at least matches the M1 Max MBP I would be replacing (I want a desktop rather than laptop, as I have a M3 MBA too).
However, looking at the cost, I have decided I will wait a while longer for a M4 Max Studio......

 

[Populus]

I was contemplating a M4 Pro, but I also wanted to increase the SSD to 1TB and the RAM to 64GB so it at least matches the M1 Max MBP I would be replacing (I want a desktop rather than laptop, as I have a M3 MBA too).
However, looking at the cost, I have decided I will wait a while longer for a M4 Max Studio......

Yeah, if you’re maxing it out to 64GB of RAM, and stepping into $2.000 to $2.500, better wait for the next Mac Studio with the M4 Max.

 

[CalMin]

I got the M4 Pro for two reasons:

1) I have an M1Pro MBP which still 'crushes' anything I throw at it. I figure the M4 and M4Pro will crush it for years and when the extra cost is amortized over the time I expect to keep the thing, then the difference isn't too bad.

2) I was able to get educational discount and put the $100 towards the M4 Pro.

---

I accept that I bought more computer than necessary... but since I plan to replace the M1Pro MBP with a 15" M4 Air, I decided that I want to keep a 'Pro' class CPU in my life for heavier tasks (whatever they may be).

 

[Macalway]

On a lot of peoples minds. What I gather is not only does the Pro have twice the P cores, which is substantial, but the cores are more powerful. Add TB5 to the equation, and if you wait for a TB5 enclosure, you could effectively expand internal storage for almost nothing, compared to what Apple wants. The price difference here is huge, and as TB5 runs at almost internal speeds, a very desirable situation.

These TB5 drives are flat-out almost twice as fast as TB4!, and TB4 is insanely fast as it is. My issues with these external drives is sustainable transfer, which is often a joke, but now a decent external enclosure will have a fan, which it needs. Of course the first prices that OWC and Acasis have at $275 are not what we want, but I'm sure you will soon see them drop to $150, and then maybe $100. They will probably stay there for while.

People talk about 'future proofing', often in questionable terms, but here it applies.

 

[throAU]

the pro question comes down to gpu mostly. it has 2x the gpu cores and almost exactly 2x the gpu power.

if you run games, LLMs or other gpu bound workloads it’s 2x faster. for things that need more power these days it’s almost always gpu.

 

[Zdigital2015]

I am trying to decide between getting the M4 mini with 24GB Ram, 32GB ram or M4 pro with 24 GB Ram. The latter 2 options are the same price.
It would replace my 2011 Mini (quad core i7 with 8GB ram) so anything would be considerably faster.

My main query is how much RAM should I allow for if using Parallels and windows 11? The parallels document Says it requires 8GB RAm minimum.
I only need 2 window programs which are not themselves memory heavy. One currently runs using Crossover but some functionality is glitchy so I am considering using parallels instead on the new mini. I have a very old version of parallels that ran XP so I should be able to get upgrade pricing for parallels.

I will also be running Lightroom which tends to max out resources on my current mini when trying to do bulk photo exports or imports of Raw files from a memory card.

24GB of DRAM will do everything you need to do. Spend the saved money on an internal storage upgrade or external storage for Lightroom. $200 for an extra 8GB of DRAM to 32GB is ridiculous. You can get by on 16, but I would opt for a 24GB M4 model.