If half of what I've been reading on various sites is true, Toyota should be kicked out and banned from F1. simple.
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Toyota accused of stealing Ferrari software and data
- Thread starter iGav
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I heard that they already admitted stealing data and now are afraid of giving data to the police and the attorneys from Ferrari because they fear that Ferrari gets their data from their research... 
iGAV said:
Haven't tried Google but if memory serves correctly didn't they get banned from the World Rally Champs. a few years back because they'd cheated?
Again from memory they used a hidden feature in their turbo design to gain a power advantage. They actually hid the feature because it was deliberatly against the rules not just so other wouldn't copy.
Diatribe said:I heard that they already admitted stealing data and now are afraid of giving data to the police and the attorneys from Ferrari because they fear that Ferrari gets their data from their research...
You probably know more about what's happening than I do, the news isn't really carrying anything over here as such, the news broke in Germany and Italy on Saturday night I think, but I've been unable to find out anything really specific over here, only bits and bobs.
But yeah, the gist of some of the information I have found out indicates that Toyota have been using Ferrari data and software in their windtunnel and have sinced added further data to it, and now refuse to return it to Ferrari! unreal
mpw said:
get that man a drink!
they were using a dodging intake that gulped up far too much air and thus produced more power, a very clever design according to some, but still cheating. But that's not the only time... it would seem (allegedly) that some of their practices in some U.S. racing series were less than... honest
iGAV said:...get that man a drink!
Yeah that's right, it's coming back to me now. I remember thinking at the time it was a clever solution.
There was a rule governing the size of the intake manifold so they split the manifold. At rest all looked OK but when the air was under pressure the manifold open along the split increasing its size and increasing the power. Because the split was along a break not a machined joint it was not visible at rest. Genius.
iGAV said:You probably know more about what's happening than I do, the news isn't really carrying anything over here as such, the news broke in Germany and Italy on Saturday night I think, but I've been unable to find out anything really specific over here, only bits and bobs.
But yeah, the gist of some of the information I have found out indicates that Toyota have been using Ferrari data and software in their windtunnel and have sinced added further data to it, and now refuse to return it to Ferrari! unreal
yeah heard it 2-3 days ago ...but not much more information is known... it's still investigated
but as far asi read i nthe articles here it's only about software from the car not about windtunnel data etc.
takao said:
Thanks for the heads up. The information I've found so far has been quite vague regarding specifics, so any info comes in handy.
I wonder what the FIA have to say about all this? remember the storm in a tea cup at the start of the 2004 season when some suggested that Sauber were infact running a carbon copy of the Ferrari F2003-GA...
If anything else crops up... would be appreciated if you'd post it!!
G
Ok, just read again that Toyota has in fact admitted stealing data and now refuses to give their programs to the investigators because they fear that Ferrari will see them.
BAR was also offered the data but Toyota took it. Not much more is known but Toyota having stolen it but saying it hasn't used it for construction of the cars.... we will see if that is true.
BAR was also offered the data but Toyota took it. Not much more is known but Toyota having stolen it but saying it hasn't used it for construction of the cars.... we will see if that is true.
Damn, Barry Bonds admitting he's juiced I can handle, but this sucks.
With Ferrari being so dominant though, Ferrari employees could have a a lot to gain by doing a little espionage work. I wonder how they found out.
With Ferrari being so dominant though, Ferrari employees could have a a lot to gain by doing a little espionage work. I wonder how they found out.
a digest of the story:
the cars involved are the F2002 Ferrari and the TF103, so it starts a year and half ago, when Ferrari noticed "similarities".
Enquiries lead to discovery that Software and data on aerodinamics had been stolen by Santini (with ferrari until 2002), who has been with toyota until october 2004. The software and data were incorporated (with or without toyota's knowledge) into Toyota's software/data, who built upon them.
Now toyota opposes transmission of 2004-acquired data to italy for the process on santini and a couple other guys because of the additional data owned by toyota, that would become available to Ferrari, and that would be, in their words "unfair".
like it was fair to steal the original data and use it (although, considering how crappy they did, they might have a case)
Toyota is too big an investor for F1, for F1 to get rid of them, but this should be punished seriously (other than whatever comes out of the two trials, one in germany, one in italy)
i would give them a penalty of 10 grid places per car for 10 races
the cars involved are the F2002 Ferrari and the TF103, so it starts a year and half ago, when Ferrari noticed "similarities".
Enquiries lead to discovery that Software and data on aerodinamics had been stolen by Santini (with ferrari until 2002), who has been with toyota until october 2004. The software and data were incorporated (with or without toyota's knowledge) into Toyota's software/data, who built upon them.
Now toyota opposes transmission of 2004-acquired data to italy for the process on santini and a couple other guys because of the additional data owned by toyota, that would become available to Ferrari, and that would be, in their words "unfair".
like it was fair to steal the original data and use it (although, considering how crappy they did, they might have a case)
Toyota is too big an investor for F1, for F1 to get rid of them, but this should be punished seriously (other than whatever comes out of the two trials, one in germany, one in italy)
i would give them a penalty of 10 grid places per car for 10 races
Why should we respect privacy of Toyota's data when they didn't respect Ferarri's? Sounds a lot like justice to me.
I don't know the whole story, but could it be that these guys from Ferrari who switched to Toyota used the data, and the Toyota execs, and most other people in charge were unaware of it? If so, I can see why they don't want Ferrari to see the data, because there was some honest work done, unfortunately, on uh-honest work brought in by these ex-ferrari employees.
I think the most hilarious claim is that next year's Ferrari would gain any advantage from knowing the inner secrets of last year's toyota's car (unless for it being a lesson on what NOT to do)!
I was thinking the same thingDon't panic said:
What could Toyota be doing now that Ferrari hasn't already tried?