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fivepoint

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Sep 28, 2007
1,175
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IOWA
After the critically acclaimed GH1, which many considered to be the ultimate DSLR for video - even better than the Canon 7D, etc. - this week Panasonic announced the GH2.

http://www.43rumors.com/continually-updated-panasonic-gh2-official/
http://www.eoshd.com/content/354-Panasonic-GH2-Hands-on-and-sample-footage


KEY DIFFERENCES COMPARED TO THE GH1:
* New sensor with 18.3 million total pixels
* ISO range 160 – 12800 vs 100-6400 form the GH1
* Sensor outpus of 1080p at 60 or 50 fps (GH1 24 or 25 fps)
* Faster sensor read-out promises faster AF and smoother viewfinder image (less tearing)
* Larger EVF (852 x 600 rather than 800 x 600 pixels)
* Touch-sensitive LCD screen
* New, more modern looking menu screens
* G2-style combined AF mode/pattern control on top plate
* Direct movie shooting button moved to top plate from rear of camera
* Control dial moved from front of handgrip to rear of camera
* Dedicated metering and ‘film mode’ buttons replaced by highly customizable Fn buttons
* Q menu button moved from top plate to rear of camera
* New battery (DMW-BLC12E) with fractionally smaller capacity (1200mAh vs 1250mAh)
* Slightly heavier (394g compared to 385g body only)


The GH1 got great reviews, and everything I've read so far about the GH2 looks to be very positive. Interested in hearing the thoughts of the experts here.

Thanks!
 
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My only problem with the GH2 as with the GH1 was ergonomics. Way too small and light for my taste, but a lot of people like that. The Gh1 took some pretty respectable stills and when combined with a proper lens, took great video. The kit lens on that thing was superb for video purposes. This new one looks to be a winner, but I will probably hold off from one because of the ergonomics. It's more cramped than a T2i.
 
My only problem with the GH2 as with the GH1 was ergonomics. Way too small and light for my taste, but a lot of people like that. The Gh1 took some pretty respectable stills and when combined with a proper lens, took great video. The kit lens on that thing was superb for video purposes. This new one looks to be a winner, but I will probably hold off from one because of the ergonomics. It's more cramped than a T2i.

That makes sense... individuals used to the largest DSLRs might find it a bit cramped... others coming from P&S will find it too large... I've read mostly very positive things about the layout, design, ergonomics... but I get your concern.

Some of the first beautiful sample video footage:
http://vimeo.com/14574108

“The GH2 is the best (disastrous) camera for video shooters!”

The predecessor to the GH2 was the GH1:
GH1 vs. Canon 5d Mark II vs. Red One
 
It's not an SLR so I don't see how it can ever be considered the ultimate video DSLR.

Touche.

My buddy brought the (i think) GH1 with him to Kenya last winter. I brought my Nikon D40.

He had a great time with the video shooting, but the auto-focus for still shots didn't work for him as well.

I think all around it is a great camera, good for doing both stills and video.

fivepoint, it should be perfect for baby moments. And those moments pass so quickly, so make sure to capture as much as you can but still enjoy them without a camera in the way. :)
 
I've only seen two video clips from the GH2 so far, but both have seemed way short of the Canons in terms of dynamic range. Hopefully gamma settings can change that.

Two other misgivings I have are the over the sensor size and codec. The sensor size rules out fast superwides. I'm less interested in the 5D for it's DoF characteristics than I am for the ability to put a 14mm f/2.8 on it. The codec is also a potential concern if they haven't enabled b-frames or otherwise somehow beefed it up.

The aliasing thing will be of interest. This seems to be the linchpin of the AF100, and it would seem prudent for Panasonic to keep it exclusive to their $5000 camcorder.
 
Yes, it's not a DSLR technically... but that's the category all of it's competitors are in I suppose... so it's just a useful category. The biggest shortfall (and it's a big one in my opinion) with the other options... is that they don't offer Auto Focus for video. That's a big deal. What are your concerns with the codec?
 
Some DSLRs can autofocus whilst shooting video. A useful category might be "interchangeable lens cameras that can shoot HD video", misusing one name to mean something else is never a good idea.
 
After the critically acclaimed GH1, which many considered to be the ultimate DSLR for video - even better than the Canon 7D, etc. -
No offense, but the GH1 can in no way be described as the "ultimate" DSLR for video, not by a long shot and certainly not by professionals. That is simply not the case.

In reality the ultimate is the Canon 1D Mark IV but the professional DSLR video craze is now at it's end. Everything will change by early next year. Glad I got my 5DmarkII when it first came out. It was fun while it lasted.

For consumers and prosumers, sure the GH1 is fun, but no where near the better Canons. As for me, I'm not investing a single cent into any more DSLR gear.
 
No offense, but the GH1 can in no way be described as the "ultimate" DSLR for video, not by a long shot and certainly not by professionals. That is simply not the case.

For consumers and prosumers, sure the GH1 is fun, but no where near the better Canons. As for me, I'm not investing a single cent into any more DSLR gear.

Really, because I've read quite different opinions by folks like David Bloom who said they were incredibly comparable. I've seen video from both cameras which look almost identical, and in many ways there seems to be a consensus that the GH1 hacked versions output better video than the Canons.

More video samples from the new GH2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIKzXDthvks&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogy4gQWK5IU&feature=player_embedded
 
Yeah, 60D.
Massive difference between the 60D and 5D Mark II. There's also the fact that Canon have a much wider range of lenses available for creative control (ie: f/1.2 lenses, macro etc)

Doesn't the Mark II cost like $3,000-$5,000? Not really the same thing. The GH2 is ~$1200. Also, I think you might have missed this quote from the article:

Even the 5D Mark II has a sensor which is really crippled by poor image processing relative to the GH2, so you will get a much higher resolved and more detailed image from the GH2 than on the 5D Mark II. And it's not just detail - dynamic range, colour - everything suffers if the image processing is not up to snuff.





Do you mean Philip Bloom? Just couldn't find any David Blooms linked with VDSLR!

Yes, oops! Thanks. ;)
 
Heh... and I just ordered a 60D for myself tonight as my first DSLR! I was considering the GH2, but obviously I decided against it.

Still, that's just one person's opinion. It is good to see that the GH2 is a good camera, too.
 
Doesn't the Mark II cost like $3,000-$5,000? Not really the same thing. The GH2 is ~$1200.
UK pricing is £1650 right now, or $2500 in the US, so your guess is rather off the mark, but the Mark II is also full frame (opposed to 2x crop factor on the Panasonic) with better noise handling.

I don't doubt video processing has moved along in the last 2 years, but it isn't the be all. The primary function of a dSLR is stills - with video being a lovely bonus when done well. Call me back when it goes full frame...
 
UK pricing is £1650 right now, or $2500 in the US, so your guess is rather off the mark, but the Mark II is also full frame (opposed to 2x crop factor on the Panasonic) with better noise handling.

I don't doubt video processing has moved along in the last 2 years, but it isn't the be all. The primary function of a dSLR is stills - with video being a lovely bonus when done well. Call me back when it goes full frame...

I'm not a photography expert by any means, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'full-frame' a rather meaningless term? Essentially, this just means the sensor is the same arbitrary size as an old 35mm camera.... so that the lens zoom numbers are consistent with what old-school photographers are used to. If the sensor is smaller than they simply say that a 65mm is more like an old 45mm or something like that. Also, wouldn't a full frame sensor also result in larger-bulkier bodies, larger-bulkier lenses? I suppose it also has the potential to pull in more light, but like the review says, cameras are generally limited by their processors and not their sensors in video... hence the reason the GH2 creates higher quality video than even the Mark II. Now, for photos... it might be exactly the opposite - but I have not seen any information to that effect and I'd say the GH2's video quality bodes well for it's still shot quality as well. Would the 'full-frame' of the Mark II indicate a change in DOF vs the GH2? I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think Canon would 100% agree with your statement that the primary function of a dslr is photos with video being a bonus... but I think Panasonic might be on to something here, that video is becoming a bigger and bigger part of media going forward since everyone owns big screen TV's and the failing influence of print media while TV and web video continues to grow. Things in 10 years will look very different than today, that much is for sure.
 
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I'm not a photography expert by any means, so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'full-frame' a rather meaningless term? Essentially, this just means the sensor is the same arbitrary size as an old 35mm camera.... so that the lens zoom numbers are consistent with what old-school photographers are used to. If the sensor is smaller than they simply say that a 65mm is more like an old 45mm or something like that. Also, wouldn't a full frame sensor also result in larger-bulkier bodies, larger-bulkier lenses? I suppose it also has the potential to pull in more light, but like the review says, cameras are generally limited by their processors and not their sensors in video... hence the reason the GH2 creates higher quality video than even the Mark II. Now, for photos... it might be exactly the opposite - but I have not seen any information to that effect and I'd say the GH2's video quality bodes well for it's still shot quality as well. Would the 'full-frame' of the Mark II indicate a change in DOF vs the GH2? I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I think Canon would 100% agree with your statement that the primary function of a dslr is photos with video being a bonus... but I think Panasonic might be on to something here, that video is becoming a bigger and bigger part of media going forward since everyone owns big screen TV's and the failing influence of print media while TV and web video continues to grow. Things in 10 years will look very different than today, that much is for sure.

Full frame isn't a meaningless term in the slightest. You're correct that it is arbitrary, but it also helps in the areas of lens construction and image quality. Lenses get expensive the wider they go (ie: shorter focal lengths), especially when they're rectilinear (ie: not fisheye) and with as little distortion as possible.

Having a 2x crop makes it even harder to hit those ultra-wides. Instead of being happy with 16mm, you have to go to 8mm and somehow stop it from distorting like crazy. It simply becomes expensive, and sometimes downright impossible. Of course, the crop factor "helps" with telephotos, but in my experience there's more value at the wide end of things.

Full frame does also impact on DoF, but you generally have to be pixel-peeping to see it. The other big difference is down to the quality output - bigger, full frame, sensors have bigger photosites, which in turn leads to higher quality. Cramming 18MP onto a 4/3rds sensor is going to lead to various issues - Canon use things like microlenses to try and improve matters in this area, but the simple fact is that the crop cameras have inferior image quality to their full frame brethren.

Yes, full frame cameras are slightly bigger - due to the viewfinder prism. My 5D Mark II is not much bigger than an other Canon xxD series camera, and certainly not enough to care about it. The bonus of having a massive, bright viewfinder is also a nice one. Lenses are not really any bigger from my knowledge, but then I use Canon's L-series which are not the smallest.

Video is a growth area, but I'm also still not fully sold on it as being a prime camera selling tool. Everybody is still struggling with AF issues, and in general the market is moving very fast. The GH2 may have an excellent processing engine, but give it a few months and something else will be better. Plus, feedback from more than one site would be useful...
 
Thanks for the great information regarding 'full-frame'. I learned a lot.
I'll be sure to post any info on GH2 still shot quality if I find any.
 
Having a 2x crop makes it even harder to hit those ultra-wides. Instead of being happy with 16mm, you have to go to 8mm and somehow stop it from distorting like crazy. It simply becomes expensive, and sometimes downright impossible.
But your image circle is much smaller for the crop lens, and therefore designing ultrawide crop is not really that much different/harder than designing an ultrawide FF lens. The lenses on small P&S cameras have to have focal lengths of like 2 or 3mm on the wide end to get what is considered "wide" for FF, but the lens designs there are not outrageously different than those you find on FF lenses. If you look at the ultrawide crop/FF lens designs, the optical formulae are not significantly altered, rather it's just mostly scaled down.

Full frame does also impact on DoF, but you generally have to be pixel-peeping to see it. The other big difference is down to the quality output - bigger, full frame, sensors have bigger photosites, which in turn leads to higher quality. Cramming 18MP onto a 4/3rds sensor is going to lead to various issues - Canon use things like microlenses to try and improve matters in this area, but the simple fact is that the crop cameras have inferior image quality to their full frame brethren.

You're making a lot of broad generalizations here, and need to be careful to keep things separate. Pixel pitch will determine per-pixel noise level, but there is no universal law stating that FF will have greater pixel pitch than crop sensors. Also when consiering video it gets more complicated because a DSLR sensor does not utilize 100% of its sensor pixels to shoot video. IIRC it "samples" 1920x1080 pixels from the full array and uses that for video. The sensor is not fast enough to sample every point of it's 21MP array 60 times a second and interpolate/downsample to 1080p video. Therefore you could design a crop sensor with only 1920x1080 pixels and have a much bigger pixel pitch than a FF VDSLR and it will perform better.

Lenses are not really any bigger from my knowledge, but then I use Canon's L-series which are not the smallest.

At the wider end of things there can be quite a large difference. The Nikon 17-55 f2.8 vs. the 24-70 f2.8 is a good example (both have a very similar FOV coverage for crop/FF). As you get more towards the telephoto end the difference is not the dominating factor, which is why nobody makes long fast DX primes (i.e. no 400mm f2.8 DX because it would not be much smaller/cheaper than the FX version).
 
Panasonic is creating a point of reference with the GH2 with which the competition can measure itself. Panasonic’s years of video experience are clearly visible and is very effectively integrated into an existing concept.

The price/quality ratio, especially in terms of shooting video with a system camera, is changing thanks to the GH2, to its advantage. There is simply no better photo/video combination to be found in this price segment currently, perhaps it can be in the whole camera segment. We congratulate the Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2

http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/camera/review/228/page_9.html
 
Part 2 of the EOSHD Review:
http://www.eoshd.com/content/465-Canon-60D-versus-Panasonic-GH2-Full-Review-Part-2

IMAGE QUALITY
Canon 60D - 7/10
Panasonic GH2 - 9/10

HANDLING
Canon 60D - 6/10
Panasonic GH2 - 9/10

BUILD QUALITY
Canon 60D - 8/10
Panasonic GH2 - 7/10

STREET CRED
Canon 60D - 9/10
Panasonic GH2 - 7/10

LENSES / ADAPTABILITY
Canon 60D - 5/10
Panasonic GH2 - 9/10

RECORDING FORMAT
Canon 60D - 6/10
Panasonic GH2 - 9/10



Phillip Bloom: http://philipbloom.net/2010/11/21/gh2/
Initial thoughts though…

Very easy to operate.

LCD touch screen great, intuitive and nice resolution.

EVF lovely, great resolution and makes handheld much easier!

Nice to have audio meters on screen whilst recording.

Image… gorgeous. SO MUCH better than GH1. No mud, no nasty vertical lines…

Although all shot at low ISO I did some 2500 ISO tests and there were really good! I found ISO 800 almost unusable at times on my GH1, and any underexposure in dark areas even at low ISOs…UGH, no problem now…

Digital Crop…I did not use it in this edit, but it works really well, sampling the centre of the sensor without loss of resolution.

Moire and aliasing minimal, I couldn’t see any, check out the cats whiskers…but more tests need to be done.

Best of all…I have just checked this…the HDMI out is totally clean, no graphics (unless you want them) and the great thing is you can have as many graphics on the GH2 LCD without affecting the clean HDMI. Once caveat. If you use the EVF it for some reason disrupts the HDMI out if you move your eye away from it. To get round this make sure you disable auto EVF/ LCD switching in the menus and it won’t do this…My Marshall says it is outputting 1080i 60i once recording but it certainly looks progressive rather than interlaced. I will connect it up to my Nanoflash tomorrow …we shall see! Great news though as the pre-production version I had two months ago had a record bug and timecode on the HDMI out. I asked Panasonic to remove this as we needed clean HDMI out. I think they may listened to me. Hurrah!
 
Awesome Auto Focus Video Tracking Feature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egMhFg2Kv1Y&feature=player_embedded#!



Phillip Bloom just updated his "Which… “Video DSLR” to buy?" post.
http://philipbloom.net/2010/12/07/whichdslr/

Seems like it's at the top of the pack, unless you need 25p - at which point your SOL.


I am very impressed with this update to the GH1. It is a big step up from the GH1 although there are a couple of key features missing.

There is finally a native 24p full HD mode (called cinema mode) which records in the very acceptable 24mb/s. Unfortunately it is only 24p not 25p which as a European shooter I need for broadcast here. There is no 25p mode. There is a 50p mode in 720p which means you can simply drop every other frame so you can achieve 25p but this is not ideal. I REALLY hope this can be addressed with a firmware update.

HDMI is clean out, no graphics but I have not done any testing with the Nanoflash yet. Reports so far say the quality is lower than the recorded. I cannot confirm or deny yet.

Articulating screen is great and the EVF is improved over the GH1 so is very usable. It has a built in slow down to 80% mode (effectively giving you what 30p would be if you conformed to 24p) and a built in speed up motion of two steps that can give you effectively a basic undercranking.

The M43 sensor gives you around a 1.9x crop of a full frame due to it being a native 16×9 sensor

Audio meters can be displayed on the screen whilst recording. Sounds basic but so lacking from DSLRs. Still no headphone jack. You also have manual control over the audio, well a number of steps you can set it at. The built in stereo mic is not horrible. Check out the cooking piece below…all the sound other than sync was done with it.

Low light is a world away from the GH1 which had nasty lines come up at ISO 800. I have shot 3200 ISO and it is totally acceptable. A HUGE STEP UP.

It has an excellent feature called 1:1 sampling. It samples the centre of the sensor in which equates to 1920×1080 and records that meaning NO moire or aliasing and gives you a nice extra boost on your lenses with no loss in quality.

It takes any lenses with the right adaptor, even S16 with the 1:1 sampling. A big plus this.

Image quality is superb with very little moire and aliasing. Rolling shutter seems the same as the GH1. Some users are reporting it worse but I have not done a side by side comparison.

So all in all a big improvement over the Gh1 but PLEASE we NEEED 25p!!!!! If 25p is irrelevant to you this is simply one of the best “DSLRs” on the market for shooting video. The stills mode is pretty good too!

PROS: Great image, great 24p mode. Minimal moire and rolling shutter, live HDMI out and clean! Manual audio with live meters, articulating screen, improved EVF. No recording limit in non EU versions. 1:1 mode is awesome, good touch screen. Internal stereo mic not too bad. Has the best auto focus video system out there!

CONS: 25p where are you? Rolling shutter is not improved. 29 minutes 59 seconds max recording per clip in EU version
 
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