vDSLRs and Aliasing (temporal & spatial)

[LethalWolfe]

Over at DVXuser.com there is an interesting article called Aliasing by Barry Green that highlights some of the short comings of the current crop of vDSLRs. I'd seen the "Bendy Propeller" clip before and I was aware that methods used to in camera to get the HD-sized image off the chip weren't the greatest, but what really came as a shock was how low the measured resolution is how much the image is subject to aliasing. According to the resolution chart the Canon EOS 7D, for example, resolved around 600 lines (more that SD but less than 720p HD) and much beyond that it rendered the horizontal lines on the chart vertical!

Obviously these cameras are inexpensive (relatively speaking), unobtrusive and can provide a look difficult to obtain from a traditional video camera, but it does come at a price so before laying down the cash people need to make sure what they intended to shoot plays to the cameras' strengths and not their weaknesses.


Lethal

 

[jampat]

Awesome article, thanks for the link. Combining a good still camera and good video camera just seemed like asking for problems and he explains quite clearly where some of the problems stem from (and why they can't be easily fixed).

 

[LethalWolfe]

I'm interested to see what Red ultimately offers up w/Epic and Scarlet because those cameras, according to Red, have been designed from the get go to be both high quality still and motion picture cameras. The vDSLRs out today are quality still cameras w/video recording tacked on. Photojournalists are being asked to not just take stills these days but also to record video to go up on the newspaper or magazine's website and that's who these cameras are target for. Nikon, Canon, etc., never intended these cameras to be used as primarily video cameras even though that's what some people are doing. And, of course, there's nothing wrong w/that as long as the camera does what you need it do, but they certainly aren't traditional video camera killers by any stretch.


Lethal

 

[TH3D4RKKN1GH7]

I've kind of had it with RED. I mean they promise, then delay, then break their promise and ultimately their business moves are going to be their downfall. The 3K for 3K Scarlet is no longer that and their lineup besides the EPIC which is "supposedly" launching FOR REAL next year (early pre production models shipping this year) is nothing more than vaporware.

I don't think they are taking these VSLR's seriously and that's a problem because these cameras ARE being used as B and C cameras on web/television productions. Independent filmmakers are gravitating towards these VSLR's for their image quality and price and RED has nothing in their lineup to accommodate them. It's rumored Canon is going to introduce some "BIG Sensor" video cameras in the next year, if so things will get very interesting.

 

[KeithPratt]

Independent filmmakers are gravitating towards these VSLR's for their image quality

It's the light sensitivity I'm after. Why oh why can't someone chuck a 1920x1080 Foveon in an HPX300? Can't be that hard. I'd make one myself if I was a less lazy man.

 

[TheStrudel]

I'm with Lethal on this. RED have already explained why they haven't shipped their second generation hardware yet, and their reasoning is very valid. The market isn't as hot now as it was before. But by all accounts, the RED One is still producing amazing images at a price far better than the competition, so they see no reason to worry. They're not trying to make "good enough" cameras, which is what the VDSLRs are. They're trying to make pro level machines, and I've yet to hear of anybody who stopped using a RED One.

I hear a lot of gushing about video on DSLRs these days, but not from video professionals. While they'll work just fine for newspapers, they just don't serve the needs of professional editors, feature films, and all the other markets RED intends to serve. M-JPEG and AVCHD are not serious formats.

 

[P-Worm]

My sister and I decided to split the cost of a Canon 7D. She wants it for stills, I want it for video. Are there serious shortcomings to the 7D? Absolutely. But there are also some serious bonuses that I couldn't dream of getting for the price (such as a wide disposal of lenses, great low light capability, being able to record 720p at 60fps for some 'true' slo-mo, etc).

I currently have a Canon XH-A1. Having this camera will help cover some of the shortcomings that come with the 7D. And having the 7D will cover some of the shortcomings of the XH-A1. On top of that, I'll have two cameras so I will be able to capture events from multiple angles (with special attention paid to color balancing, of course).

P-Worm

 

[TH3D4RKKN1GH7]

I'm with Lethal on this. RED have already explained why they haven't shipped their second generation hardware yet, and their reasoning is very valid. The market isn't as hot now as it was before. But by all accounts, the RED One is still producing amazing images at a price far better than the competition, so they see no reason to worry. They're not trying to make "good enough" cameras, which is what the VDSLRs are. They're trying to make pro level machines, and I've yet to hear of anybody who stopped using a RED One.

I hear a lot of gushing about video on DSLRs these days, but not from video professionals. While they'll work just fine for newspapers, they just don't serve the needs of professional editors, feature films, and all the other markets RED intends to serve. M-JPEG and AVCHD are not serious formats.

Professional Editors? What limitations do video SLRs have on an editor? They're using a 7D for the Saturday Night live intro, even used it for some shots in Dollhouse. Vincent Laforet who is now a DP spoke about how these cameras were being used on sets for all sorts of situations because DPs don't feel bad about throwing them right into the action. There has been reports of 5D Mark IIs on set of Iron Man 2. There was even 5D Mark II rigged with high quality Panavision glass for work on the last Harry Potter film. The tool isn't the professional the individual is.

I mean RED's cameras don't even exist because Jim is too busy dicking around to get things done. They keep tacking on things to make it seem more impressive which does nothing but delay and increase price. At the moment RED is all talk. I mean lets not forget the strenuous process which was the RED One launch.

I mean look at the reaction to the recent RED news people are just like "meh" they're losing the backing they once had.

 

[TheStrudel]

Shrug. Keep ignoring the RED One. A friend of mine who DPs in NYC tells me everything is moving to RED. They don't seem to be losing any backing that I know of. But while you're at it, keep ignoring the high rate of compression these cameras apply as well as the nasty aliasing situation described in the link. The example they have there is pretty bad.

 

[P-Worm]

Shrug. Keep ignoring the RED One. A friend of mine who DPs in NYC tells me everything is moving to RED. They don't seem to be losing any backing that I know of. But while you're at it, keep ignoring the high rate of compression these cameras apply as well as the nasty aliasing situation described in the link. The example they have there is pretty bad.

If I had money for a RED One, I would get it.

P-Worm

 

[TheFuzz]

what are we arguing here? i feel the need to jump in, drop some names, and then defend my purchase of the 7D by saying something about how the sensor's so damn close to S35 that there was no reason to jump to the 5DmkII and by the time RED's new cams come to market i'd be able to pay for one with work done with my dslr.

omg. seriously. who the hell cares? who gives a damn what tool's used? just make something and stop bitching about equipment. you people suck. and who said anything about ignoring the red one? it's a great camera. why ignore it? it's not really in the same class as a dslr. meh. now all we need is some ponytailed photographers to come in here and start bitching about video being included on dslrs in the first place. waste. of. time. go out and be creative.

back to the og topic. interesting article, lethal. thanks for posting.

 

[TH3D4RKKN1GH7]

No one is ignoring the RED One I'm speaking to RED's new line which is VAPORWARE. Everything isn't moving to RED if you were to say everything is going digital I could believe that, but RED ain't the only people out there doing digital cinematography. The proof is in the pudding if there are major productions and industry professionals willing to use these DSLRs they obviously aren't as useful for the medium as some of you would like to think.

It's just like still photography, I used to work for a photographer who used disposable cameras for a lot of the work he sold and made a living off of. His favorite cameras were the tiny little small film cameras, he would take his shots and later toss the cam. Now no one is gonna sit here and say a disposable film camera is better than a high end Nikon or Canon film camera, some would say "disposable isn't a pro camera" but that didn't stop him from doing pro work with one. It's really not about the tools.

The fact is people want to keep slagging on these DSLRs and say "RED is better RED is better" the fact that a 2700 dollar camera is good enough to most folks to even be compared to a 28K camera and we're talking just the brain here alone, is a big testament to these DSLRs.

 

[KeithPratt]

I used to work for a photographer who used disposable cameras for a lot of the work he sold and made a living off of.

The point you've unconsciously made here is that he was obviously selling a certain look if he was using a disposable. And that's what the current set of VSLRs offer. As things stand, they lack what is needed in a multipurpose tool. Red is closer but really its selling point is offering a compromise at an excellent price. At the high end many seem to be migrating from film to the Sony F35 (ahead of its brethren). The image, to my taste at least, is a step up from Red and it has the operational stability and settled-upon workflow you get with film.

It's really not about the tools.

You try making a movie with a lathe.

 

[LethalWolfe]

No one was proclaiming Red was end all, be all of cameras nor was anyone "slagging" on vDSLRs. If pointing out that the current crop of vDSLRS have pretty big aliasing problems and can only resolve around 600 lines on a test chart is slagging I guess Stu Maschwitz is a vDSLR slagger too. From Stu's twitter, "It bears repeating: Point a 5D or 7D in video mode at a resolution chart (or anything that looks like one) and you're in for some hurt." Quick, someone flame Stu for being a hater.

As someone already said, these are just tools so why the apparent emotional investment about which company's tool are being used?


KeithPratt,
If someone is trying to make movie w/a lathe they are an idiot for using the wrong tool for the job and that is no fault of the lathe. Seriously though, it is the talent behind the tool that's really important. Being able to edit well, to tell a story well, isn't conditional on whether or not the editor is using a flatbed, linear suite, or Avid.


Lethal

 

[TH3D4RKKN1GH7]

My post was geared towards the response from RED users and some people out there stating these cameras aren't professional tools it was never an attack against your article/post. Stu is far from a VSLR slagger lets not be ridiculous.

The investment was never in the company it was in the technology, I don't know how you made that distinction. Nikon's video is just getting up to snuff which is why the emphasis has been put on 5 and 7D cameras. I just want to see Jim deliver on some of his pipe dreams instead of talking about them and getting someone to take incredibly delicious photographs of them (I mean got damn those cameras look amazing in those photographs)

 

[LethalWolfe]

My post was geared towards the response from RED users and some people out there stating these cameras aren't professional tools it was never an attack against your article/post. Stu is far from a VSLR slagger lets not be ridiculous.

What Red users in this thread were you responding to with your first post complaining about Red?

The investment was never in the company it was in the technology, I don't know how you made that distinction.

So why do you bitch about Red, as a company, in every post but you never talked about the tech even though the point of this thread is entirely technology based?

I just want to see Jim deliver on some of his pipe dreams instead of talking about them and getting someone to take incredibly delicious photographs of them.

People were saying the same thing about the Red One and, well, now it's being used for principle photography by A-list talent on A-list projects. Same sh*t, different day for Epic and Scarlet so what's the big deal? Why does the timetable the company works at bug you so much? If you don't like the circus just don't pay attention to it.


Lethal

 

[TH3D4RKKN1GH7]

What Red users in this thread were you responding to with your first post complaining about Red?


So why do you bitch about Red, as a company, in every post but you never talked about the tech even though the point of this thread is entirely technology based?



People were saying the same thing about the Red One and, well, now it's being used for principle photography by A-list talent on A-list projects. Same sh*t, different day for Epic and Scarlet so what's the big deal? Why does the timetable the company works at bug you so much? If you don't like the circus just don't pay attention to it.


Lethal

My first post on RED was direct response to you if you look back at your post. Also what we're talking about is DSLR technology vs RED's technology, where was that lost? It's the whole point of this all, RED taking forever to get their tech to market while the VSLR continues to improve and make its way into real productions.

RED One had no real expectations because there was no precursor. That was their first product launch so people kind of dealt with the hassles which was post work on the RED One, I attended some workshops on it myself that were spearheaded by Adobe. Now this time they announce products really way before theyre even ready to come to market, tell people they're coming at this date, delay it, then say okay we got some real news, then its more delays and now a shift in price. I mean lets be honest what was most impressive about the Scarlet was the "3K for 3K" mantra, we all know that's FAR from the case now and we still don't have a solid date.

What professional in their right mind would enjoy the circus might I ask? I mean a lot of people were looking forward to their next release and we get nothing again.

 

[LethalWolfe]

My first post on RED was direct response to you if you look back at your post. Also what we're talking about is DSLR technology vs RED's technology, where was that lost? It's the whole point of this all, RED taking forever to get their tech to market while the VSLR continues to improve and make its way into real productions.

So me saying I'm interested to see what Red eventually comes out w/because they are coming from a different place than Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, etc., means I'm a Red user? Other than calling Red's cameras vaporware, pipe dreams, and broken promises what discussion about Red tech was there?

Was their any discussions about why the Red One, or other video cameras in general, don't exhibit the same type and level of aliasing that the current vDSLRs do? Was there any talk about what steps DSLR makers might have to take to increase the read-out speeds of their imagers so that line skipping and pixel binning (the source of the aliasing)? Or how far the DSLR makers could go in adding video camera features before they start to piss off still photogs by adding 'bloat' to what are first and foremost still cameras? Or whether Canon and Panasonic are going to let their still cameras truly compete w/their video cameras? Or how it's interesting the the DSLR aliasing typically gets perceived as image sharpness and that even though it can only cleanly resolve around 600 lines it still can produce an image many find more aesthetically pleasing than images from cameras that are higher resolution?

I mean there's lots of stuff that could've been talked about besides internet rumors of 5Ds being on the set of Harry Potter and Iron Man 2 and how much you hate Jim Jannard for continuing to revise Scarlet in the face of a changing vDSLR landscape.

Now this time they announce products really way before theyre even ready to come to market, tell people they're coming at this date, delay it, then say okay we got some real news, then its more delays and now a shift in price. I mean lets be honest what was most impressive about the Scarlet was the "3K for 3K" mantra, we all know that's FAR from the case now and we still don't have a solid date.

Red isn't acting any different now than they did in the past though. Whether it was Red One, Red Primes, Red Ray, Red 4k projectors, various Red accessories, etc., the mantra of 'everything will change, count on it' is the only thing that's stayed the same.

What professional in their right mind would enjoy the circus might I ask? I mean a lot of people were looking forward to their next release and we get nothing again.

I don't personally which is why I only occasionally drop by Reduser.net to see what's going on. Pretty much since the time Red the company was just a rumor I followed it regularly, but once Red One came out and it was clear it was released as a early Beta I took a 'someone call me when it's done' attitude. Which is the same attitude I have towards Epic and Scarlet. I'll check in every now and then but I'm not going to start paying close attention until final products are shipping. Speculation is worthless w/how fluid of a company Red is.

One the flip side there are a lot of Red One early adopters that will be Epic early adapters. Peter Jackson obviously likes Red. Steven Soderbergh has already shot 3 movies on Red One and his shooting his next movie on a Red One modified w/the next gen Mysterium-X imager that's going to be used in Epic.


Lethal