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Windows ARM laptops getting better

L

LarTeROn

macrumors member
Original poster
May 8, 2020
65
22
Hong Kong
Windows sucks. ARM on Windows has been particularly bad.
That seems to be improving lately with Surface 7, ASUS ProArt and Snapdragon X in general.
There's a lot more software coming out for Windows ARM recently, and there's still the compatibility layer.
Sometimes you get all this for nearly half the price, so you can get almost double for your money in some instances.

If anything, these ARM laptops can put pressure on Apple to stop the price gouging on ram & storage, but only if these 2 ecosystems are actually competing against each other and not differentiated by Apple choosing local AI privacy and Microsoft subsidising cost by tearing down privacy and selling the data.

This year's touchpads aren't too bad AFAIK, but I couldn't find an ARM one with a Sensel touchpad, reputed to be better than Apple.
You can disable tracking with Shutup10 in a couple of clicks.
I'm starting to think that a lot of the annoyances like this can be mitigated. Perhaps the fonts can be made prettier. Perhaps the idiosyncracities can be fixed just like I had to do when moving to MacOS.

Personally, I'm going to try dual booting and try to make it sufferable as an experiment.

What are your thoughts?

edit: Surface 7 touchpad is supposed to be as good as Apple.
 
Last edited:
The main Apple tax is memory and storage and I don't see that changing, outside of maybe those third-party storage modules. But that's not an Apple thing - it's third-party driven.

My only use case for Windows is x86. I can do everything that I need to on macOS except for one program and I consider, from time to time, buying a second light laptop to run that one program. It's just really hard to justify bringing a second laptop with its own charging brick on trips. I don't really have a solution to this other than to live with the performance and battery life issue on my M1 Pro MacBook Pro or wait for my software vendor to make a native Apple Silicon port.

My ecosystem is still Apple and I rely heavily on iCloud so doing everything on Windows is not an option unless I can also run macOS on it efficiently.
 
ARM is the future. Microsoft is committed to making it happen with its support and that is very important.
 
pshufd said:
The main Apple tax is memory and storage and I don't see that changing, outside of maybe those third-party storage modules. But that's not an Apple thing - it's third-party driven.

My only use case for Windows is x86. I can do everything that I need to on macOS except for one program and I consider, from time to time, buying a second light laptop to run that one program. It's just really hard to justify bringing a second laptop with its own charging brick on trips. I don't really have a solution to this other than to live with the performance and battery life issue on my M1 Pro MacBook Pro or wait for my software vendor to make a native Apple Silicon port.

My ecosystem is still Apple and I rely heavily on iCloud so doing everything on Windows is not an option unless I can also run macOS on it efficiently.
Click to expand...

If MacOS hadn't improved at the OSX stage, I wouldn't be on Mac. I really prefer it to Windows because it gives me a cleaner experience without having to use Linux. It's a bit like having linux and Windows in one in terms of what it does for me. That's why I'm on it.

In addition,
My MBP works very well at 10 years old. It can do everything except M processor apps and AI. I rented a cloud system for compatibility, but I found turning it on and off made it impractical. However, you could leave your x86 at home and remotely connect?

If I want AI and M CPU apps I'll have to pay 1000% more than my current system to get the same amount of ram and storage. While I cringe at that, there's just something about Windows that make me cringe even more, even though the overall experience has gotten so much better. Things like the registry. The blocking of LTSC for non-businesses and the customer as the product, that kind of thing. But worst of all is that it just seem archaic and messy. I see things like the Windows Linux subsystem, alternatives to Brew and start to think that a lot of this mess can be dealt with, but then it just seems so messy; even messier than MacOS.

A Surface 7 is very good. I think it's Windows that is the main problem in that it didn't go through that painful upgrade overhaul as much like MacOS with OSX.
 
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LarTeROn said:
In addition,
My MBP works very well at 10 years old. It can do everything except M processor apps and AI. I rented a cloud system for compatibility, but I found turning it on and off made it impractical. However, you could leave your x86 at home and remotely connect?
Click to expand...

It's not practical as I run it native 4k at home. It's also graphically intensive and that won't work on a slow connection. One reason that I'd prefer a 4k MacBook over the odd-resolutions that they have now. A 17 inch Windows thin and light 4k laptop would be ideal. It does not need much CPU nor GPU - just x86 speed from 2020 or later. Even my 2015 MacBook Pro 15 running Windows is faster than my Mac Studio but the resolution on that is only 2,880 x 1,800.

An ideal solution would be something like an LG Gram 17 with a 4k display. Most Windows laptops in the thin and light category have moved away from 4k. I do not actually see any for sale.

It seems like they assume that you want to do some gaming if you're looking for a 4k display so the option is more common in gaming laptops or heavier laptops.

The HP Envy 17.3 is attractive but it's 5.5 pounds and that's an issue if carrying two laptops. They have a model with 64 GB of RAM and 2 TB SSD for under $1,600 right now. I could actually use something like this for what I do except I'd lose my iCloud programs which I run my life on. I suppose I could run iTunes on Windows to sync and backup my iPhone on the road. It's definitely something to think about. If I could run macOS in a virtual machine, then it would be manageable and I wouldn't need to carry my MacBook Pro around. The Envy only has a 55 whr battery and I don't know the battery life.
 
pshufd said:
If they were really committed to it, they'd drop x86 support like Apple did.
Click to expand...
Different company with different motives. There are far too many companies using Windows and x86.

Apple was so far behind on gaming, for example, that it made no difference that they jumped to ARM. Who cares? That would be a monumental task for Windows.
 
I really want <12" screen, <2lbs laptops with ARM that get a realistic 8-12 hours of battery life. Think Apple's 12" MacBook or smaller.
 
LarTeROn said:
Windows sucks. ARM on Windows has been particularly bad.
That seems to be improving lately with Surface 7, ASUS ProArt and Snapdragon X in general.
There's a lot more software coming out for Windows ARM recently, and there's still the compatibility layer.
Sometimes you get all this for nearly half the price, so you can get almost double for your money in some instances.

If anything, these ARM laptops can put pressure on Apple to stop the price gouging on ram & storage, but only if these 2 ecosystems are actually competing against each other and not differentiated by Apple choosing local AI privacy and Microsoft subsidising cost by tearing down privacy and selling the data.

This year's touchpads aren't too bad AFAIK, but I couldn't find an ARM one with a Sensel touchpad, reputed to be better than Apple.
You can disable tracking with Shutup10 in a couple of clicks.
I'm starting to think that a lot of the annoyances like this can be mitigated. Perhaps the fonts can be made prettier. Perhaps the idiosyncracities can be fixed just like I had to do when moving to MacOS.

Personally, I'm going to try dual booting and try to make it sufferable as an experiment.

What are your thoughts?

edit: Surface 7 touchpad is supposed to be as good as Apple.
Click to expand...
Microsoft has several things going against them, one they still have not made the whole system truly ARM native, and they still have several compatibility issues that Macs generally had ironed out when it came to most apps that they made and third party. The biggest sacrifice of course was certain games, an issue I don't see Microsoft having as much if they actually concentrated more on it.

Inevitably, Microsoft will have to, as Qualcomm catches up. I don't think Qualcomm will ever fully close the gap with Apple Silicon, but they do have the advantage of being able to accept new storage, ram, and graphics in many models, but I do see most consumer PCs being closer to how Macs are in the future, and most are already anyways.

I personally think that by the time Qualcomm manages to catch up to Apple (say 2030-2035), Apple will have already been transitioning to a new instruction and chip set, likely one that they completely create in house, where it is similar to ARM, but just different enough they don't have to worry about paying out any licensing fees.
 
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