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Worldcom CEO Ebbers GUILTY! dah
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I think Ebbers was the CEO of WorldCom, not Enron. That honor (snicker) went to Jeff Skilling, who definitely has not been tried yet.
Jim
Edit: Ah, ok you changed it.
Jim
Edit: Ah, ok you changed it.
I am so tired of the 'Justice' system saying guilty and in the end it is only a slap on the wrist for some minor things. So in the end there is really no incentive to do it the 'right' way when the 'wrong' way is more profitable.
They go to the court systems with a laundry list of things that they want to charge some one for and the lawyers get the big deals thrown out and it comes down to lying or something...which doesn't carry that much of a penalty - I think I had worse penalties for lying when I was a kid
They go to the court systems with a laundry list of things that they want to charge some one for and the lawyers get the big deals thrown out and it comes down to lying or something...which doesn't carry that much of a penalty - I think I had worse penalties for lying when I was a kid
ziwi said:I am so tired of the 'Justice' system saying guilty and in the end it is only a slap on the wrist for some minor things. So in the end there is really no incentive to do it the 'right' way when the 'wrong' way is more profitable.
They go to the court systems with a laundry list of things that they want to charge some one for and the lawyers get the big deals thrown out and it comes down to lying or something...which doesn't carry that much of a penalty - I think I had worse penalties for lying when I was a kid
Ummm... this guy's facing up to 85 years in prison. Did you get worse than that when you were a kid???
We'll see what he actually ends up getting sentenced to, but I would guess this guy will spend at least 10 years in jail, and probably more. Hardly worth it I'd say.
ziwi said:I am so tired of the 'Justice' system saying guilty and in the end it is only a slap on the wrist for some minor things. So in the end there is really no incentive to do it the 'right' way when the 'wrong' way is more profitable.
They go to the court systems with a laundry list of things that they want to charge some one for and the lawyers get the big deals thrown out and it comes down to lying or something...which doesn't carry that much of a penalty - I think I had worse penalties for lying when I was a kid
I would like to see these white collar thugs get stiff sentencing!
Funny thing is how everyone like to hate that guy while Martha Stuart is seen as an hero while she did something as worst...
While I won't say that what MS did was OK, her crime involved a few hundred thousand dollars, and her company did not collapse because of what she did.Mantat said:
Evers is guilty of something like $11,000,000,000 in fraud charges, plus he collapsed a company that many people were relying on the stock from to retire on.
MS isn't even in the same league with this guy's crime.
mactastic said:
I believe Stewart's miscreant behavior had to do with less than $50,000 but correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm also not sure how "collapsed" WorldCom is/was because they got the cellular contract in Iraq - the same day they were slapped with a $10 million fine from the guv-ment.
White-collar crime is usually treated lightly despite the fact that millions and often billions of dollars are involved.
Inspector Lee said:
I'm not entirely sure the exact number involved, but I do know it was considerably less than $11 billion.
No, you're right they didn't collapse completely... Ebbers just drove them into bankruptcy.
So true.
Guys, you are only looking at hard numbers and not WHAT was done.
Of course in the case of Enron it was a fraud, a huge one. But what Martha did is technicaly worst: she used insider knowledge to make profit.
I understand that unless you are an investor, it doesnt soudn 'that' big, but it is! First it was over 50k$, I am sure (gonna google it after that post) but most importantly, she frauded the market. Letting people get away so easy with that kind of crime is very bad. It would mean that only people on the direction board and their friends would be able to make money on the stock market, it would destroy the confidence of investor and ultimatly destroy the economy. This is why these kind of actions should be punished much more.
Just think about it: would you invest your many in a company that will only benefit to the top investors and forget the others? This was the kind of market that was present in the time of the railroad boom in the US. There was so much fraud that it killed its futur expension.
Personnaly, I think that any share owner who did such a crime shouldhave its shares removed and voided. Integrity is important and punishement should fit the crime!
Of course in the case of Enron it was a fraud, a huge one. But what Martha did is technicaly worst: she used insider knowledge to make profit.
I understand that unless you are an investor, it doesnt soudn 'that' big, but it is! First it was over 50k$, I am sure (gonna google it after that post) but most importantly, she frauded the market. Letting people get away so easy with that kind of crime is very bad. It would mean that only people on the direction board and their friends would be able to make money on the stock market, it would destroy the confidence of investor and ultimatly destroy the economy. This is why these kind of actions should be punished much more.
Just think about it: would you invest your many in a company that will only benefit to the top investors and forget the others? This was the kind of market that was present in the time of the railroad boom in the US. There was so much fraud that it killed its futur expension.
Personnaly, I think that any share owner who did such a crime shouldhave its shares removed and voided. Integrity is important and punishement should fit the crime!
They're both wrong. One is a worse crime than the other in that it affected far more people far more deeply than the other.
Neither one deserve our praise. But if you can differentiate between an employee who steals from the till and an armed robber who takes everything in the till, plus scares the crap out of the employees and customers, and sets the place on fire on the way out, then you can distinguish between what Stewart did and what Ebbers did.
My understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong here) is that Stewart was using insider information to sell some of her personal investments off to avoid a large loss on the stocks in question (Imclone, I believe). She was in no way using her company or it's assets to commit her crime. Ebbers deliberately falsified corporate documents (thereby affecting a huge number of people) which led to the bankruptcy filing by WorldCom and directly to the loss of a huge amount of money that other people had trusted him to maintain.
Again, I'm not defending Stewart or her actions here. I'm just saying don't be surprised when Ebbers gets the book thrown at him and spends far more than 6 months in jail. His crime was worse than Stewarts in my opinion, and apperently in the opinion of the judicial system. We'll see how stern they are with Ebbers.
Neither one deserve our praise. But if you can differentiate between an employee who steals from the till and an armed robber who takes everything in the till, plus scares the crap out of the employees and customers, and sets the place on fire on the way out, then you can distinguish between what Stewart did and what Ebbers did.
My understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong here) is that Stewart was using insider information to sell some of her personal investments off to avoid a large loss on the stocks in question (Imclone, I believe). She was in no way using her company or it's assets to commit her crime. Ebbers deliberately falsified corporate documents (thereby affecting a huge number of people) which led to the bankruptcy filing by WorldCom and directly to the loss of a huge amount of money that other people had trusted him to maintain.
Again, I'm not defending Stewart or her actions here. I'm just saying don't be surprised when Ebbers gets the book thrown at him and spends far more than 6 months in jail. His crime was worse than Stewarts in my opinion, and apperently in the opinion of the judicial system. We'll see how stern they are with Ebbers.
Terrific.
He should do hard time. He should have all his assets seized and the money should go to employees and shareholders.
He should do hard time. He should have all his assets seized and the money should go to employees and shareholders.
mactastic said:
You are totaly right. But you cant really say that one is worst because it affect more people than the other. It might look like it at first glance, but there arent much difference. MS totaly (could have) destroyed the trust of minority investors in the market which can be much worst than the Eron thing. Just imagine how hard it would be to start a small 2m$ venture if no investors were interested because they couldnt trust you!
Of course, the MS effect wont be that big but still, it shock me to see how well she is treated right now. She is in the news every night, people keep saying how they love her and wish her well, etc... It really sicken me! She should be beaten up and thrown on the steet, not elevated to the rank of superstar! She doesnt even regret her actions!
Anyways, Eron and MS case are totaly different: one is insider knowledge the other blatant fraud. In the case of Eron, 10y arent enough IMHO especialy since he would be able to get out in about 3ys. But at the same time, people have to understand that stock market investment, actually any investment isnt totaly secure. hence the importance of diversification. I couldnt believe my eyes when I saw the guy who invested all his retirement money in Enron, what an idiot! You should always have between 5-10 title, 7 being the magic number and in at least 5 different sectors. Poor guy, but he brought it on himself...
mactastic said:
I agree. Ebbers caused much more harm to many more people. The same could be said in the case of Enron.
The thing that galls me the most about Stewert is she did it for about $50k
when she is a billionaire plus she was an ex broker and certainly knew better.
But yes Ebbers punishment should be more severe.
I've always thought that the severity of the prison term (not necessarily the length--more like the unplesantness) should be proportional to the amount of damage multiplied by the number of people it affected. So if you have murder (big harm) X 1 persion (small number), that = big penalty. Sending viagra spam (small harm) X 20 million people (big number) = big penalty.
So in this case you have Loss of Retirement funds (medium harm) X hundreds of people = very big penalty. If you're going to spend years in prison for burglarizing a store, this guy should get centuries.
And while MS may have done something that is shaky to the market, so is fraud for a multi billion dollar company. Sure, it's bad for investors if they can't trust stock because of insider trading, but isn't it even worse when giagantic companies are lying about how much money they're actually making?
Besides, Stewart went to jail for lying to the SEC, not for the actual insider trading.
So in this case you have Loss of Retirement funds (medium harm) X hundreds of people = very big penalty. If you're going to spend years in prison for burglarizing a store, this guy should get centuries.
And while MS may have done something that is shaky to the market, so is fraud for a multi billion dollar company. Sure, it's bad for investors if they can't trust stock because of insider trading, but isn't it even worse when giagantic companies are lying about how much money they're actually making?
Besides, Stewart went to jail for lying to the SEC, not for the actual insider trading.
I heard a talking head claim today that Ebbers' actions cost 20,000 people their jobs, and cost investors over $100,000,000,000. That's why this case is different from Stewart's. If her actions had had this magnitude of result I'd be calling for a life sentence for her too.
~loserman~ said:
Hell, I think Enron is worse...they deliberately manipulated energy prices by taking generators off and online, laughed about it, screwed over the West Coast economy and had the damn gall to bill regional utilities for their illgotten gains.
Ebbers will probably spend the rest of his life in prison. He will have plenty of time to think about all the misery that was caused by the actions of his company. My hope is that this verdict will ring true in board rooms, CEO, & CFO offices nationwide. The best that can come of this verdict is that this never happens again.
If anyone watched the 60 Minutes expose on Kenneth Lay, you can see what a scumbag he is to be the CEO of a company with people inside committing fraud out the wazoo and he pleads ignorance. His dishonesty and lack of integrity will be his downfall. Life imprisonment for him is also a just punishment.
Dream on, most of these guys never get caught or do time. There is a growing problem in the U.S and thats overpaid CEO's who screw their workers,stockholders,and company while setting up deals that line their pockets with millions even if they leave or get fired. They have a win win situation while the American worker gets crapped on. Even Apple does this look how they treat their American workers while the brass is raking in millions with special deals and stock options planes etc while closing plants and firing folks. Its gotten way out of control but thats capitalism isnt it? Republicans love this stuff. Its time to start looking close at these unethical bastards that run most of these large corporations. The Martha Stewarts the Ebbers and many others have something in common. They are greedy scum. What did Jesus say about these types? easier to thread a needle with a camel.....................wdlove said:
Dont Hurt Me said:
Well, I agree with a lot of that, but have no problem with people raking in their millions, AS LONG AS IT IS DONE LEGALLY. The CEO's and other execs caught with their hand in the cookie jar should get slammed hard! But rarely ever happens-sadly.